What a great blog by a newer friend of mine. Has pictures!!!
I should try that. Great insights, very deep thinking. This really blessed me, and convicted me this morning so I thought I would share it with you. Please use the links and experience the wonderful blog.
Good on ya Josh
the rev
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55 comments:
Why do you comment on Jello and what is CROWNTOWNPUNKS?
CROWNTOWNPUNKS! ! !
Hey John I think you forgot to put up the link you refer to in that last post. No link.
The link is there keith, it is the last link on my links list.
The suburb I grew up in was named Corona, which is spanish for crown. The punk rock gang I hung out with as a kid was called the crown town punks.
And I like jello.
the rev
Oh. I was looking for it within the post.
Got ya.
You can't hide from anonymous on your own blog.
So you were offended by the comparison between Jesus and zombies?
A person rising from the dead is such a bizarre story to base a faith on. No-one has ever witnessed a person rising from the dead. No-one witnessed Jesus rising from the dead.
If God want's to revive a relationship with people (or whatever the Gospel story is supposed to be about), don't you think he would think of something better than a walking undead story?
Anon..
Wouldnt want to get into a debate about who saw what when, or "proof" In my view, if God wanted to "Prove" anything, Jesus (if he did rise from the dead) would have made an appearance at the govenors palace, not in a garden to a prostitute and a handfull of illiterate labourers..
But the Gospel record does seem to support the view that though no one wittnessed Jesus Rising from the dead, a number of his friends saw him after the fact - the same ones that saw him crucified.
I dont care much to debate the ressurection, I dont think it achieves much..
You flatter yourself anon, I am not trying to hide from you. You just seem like a judgemental arrogant person bent on proving others wrong and yourself right, you go places where you can spread your message and do not care how offensive you are in the process. You will have no convert in me my friend, but good on you for taking the worst of religion and making it your own.
Perhaps you should study the Cristus Victor idea from the orthodox church, it may give you a better understanding of my position. But in the end I see you as just someone who hides behind a computer and seeks to offend people. Never understood why that would be fun but please don't make too much of a nuisance of yourself here, I try to keep it discussional.
the rev
Ok, this is what I found on "Cristus Victor":
"As Cristus Victor, Jesus overcomes evil, violence and death through his life, death and resurrection. He “disarms the powers and principalities and triumphs over them through the cross” (Col. 2:15), bringing liberation to human beings from all oppression."
Duh, but God who is supposed to be all-powerful has always been able to do all of the above anyway. How does the alleged death and resurrection of Jesus make any difference? Doesn't make sense.
It makes sense when you consider that Jesus intentionally became a man and subjected himself to the limitations of what that means. So his miracles were done not in His power but through the Spirits power, just like we would. His victory over sin, His victory over the enemy, His victory over sickness, the elements, and finally over death, are done to help us understand what we are called to live out.
When Christianity resolves to be conservative, safe, and secure, it rejects the very nature of Christ. Christ overcomes, He does not wallow in the mire, but neither does he pretend. He faces the full weight of darkness, hatred, oppresion, the powers of this world, and in the end he conquers all. Like all the armies of the time could not do, his movement conquered Rome.
Unfortunately in its victory it was subverted.
By the way, I understand why it doesn't make sense to you. The shear illogicalness of it does not appeal to the heirs of the Greeks, the pursuers of knowledge. But like love, it transcends science, and logic. When your presupositions have been changed, it them makes perfect sense, but not before. Like Neo in the Matrix I have swallowed the red pill and can never see life the same again.
the rev
So when you think about Easter, isn't it really disrespectful of an almighty God to suggest that he (or she or it) needs to indulge our emotional fantasies with a god transformed into human death and resurrection story? Especially when he was only going to be temporarily dead, anyway. Hey, I don't mind being dead once in a while, either.
It would be a big deal for a person to endure what Jesus went through, but for a disguised God it was a piece of piss.
perhaps you don't understand my views, Jesus was not a disguised God, but rather became a human, and is still human today. That is the greater miracle to my mind, Jesus left Godness and became man, and stayed man for all eternity, such is his love for us.
the rev
Yeah, just like those who inherit a vast fortune and live a life of sleaze and depravity. The're not authentic down and outs, are they?
Anyway, Jesus is supposed to be fully God as well as human. He hasn't given up being part of the trinity.
Now there's an interesting idea a story about God giving up his powers forever. What would happen to the world, to the universe then?
Is that a scary thought?
You allow people to choose "anonymous" as an identity. And then have the hide to tell them off for hiding behind a keyboard!
Yes you can choose to be a scared little human afraid to identify theirself, who am I to deny you that? And yes I do think remaining anon is hiding behind a keyboard. And yes I have the hide to call you on it.
As to Jesus, Jesus limited himself to humanity, and that is the greatest sacrifice to my mind. But God is three, so like we can rely on and be in unity with the Father, He is.
Can you explain to me why you care?
the rev
You must get all types on this blog. I'm one type.
Why do I care?
Why do you care?
Wow, you got me there !
Oh wait, I care because we all care about ourselves,
and since this is my life, and the motivation for all
of my life, and the meaning and purpose for my life, I
care about that. Maybe you can tell me where your
website is so I can come and harass you, and your
friends. Oh wait, I wouldn't do that. Hmmmmm I guess
I just don't care.
the rev
Do you associate with non-church people? Or only people who you can con into going to your church? To tell them that undead Jesus story.
Are you preaching tomorrow? Why not weave the topic of Zombies into the message? Maybe you'll get a laugh out of some. If I was there, I'd laugh.
actually I associate with many non church people. But your zombie thing seems like the ticket, if I promise to talk about zombies will you come to church tomorrow? And give a nice gift in the offering?
the rev
You won't just mutter the word "zombie" really fast and expect me to pop fifty bucks in the collection plate, will you? It's got to be more substantial than that.
What's the deal?
well, I will promise the word zombie, loudly and clearly spoken atleast three times, for a minimum donation of fifty dollars. For an additional "donation" of fifty dollars I will play a clip from dawn of the dead.
the rev
Sounds like a possible deal. Time and place?
I need the money upfront, I am no idiot
well maybe I am, but I still want the money upfront.
:)
the rev
How can I get $100 to you this close to Sunday?
What about I turn up early, show you the 100 bucks and then we take it on trust from there?
that sounds fair
Ascot Vale churh of Christ 11:00 am
:)
the rev
So how was church this morning without the zombie messages.
It is most displeasing to see a man of God make a promise to which he has no intention of keeping.
Oh well, you missed out on the 100 dollars.
It is displeasing to see an athiest make a deal he has no intention of keeping.
But church went very well, with the extra space I had to leave for the zombie film clip, we had time to sing amazing grace, and listen to He's Alive by Don Francisco not once but twice. Was great to have both of the faith communities I attend gather together.
thanks for asking, how was you meaningless, but oh so welcome holiday?
the rev
Now listen here, Rev.
You disclosed publicly on signposts.org.au at 10:57pm last night, "ofcourse there will be no zombies or dawn of the dead".
Demonstrating you had no intention of keeping your word.
Why would I bother keeping my side of the bargain in vain?
I saw William S Burroughs quote on signposts, which I think is appropriate. It's from "Words of Advice for Young People"
"If you are doing business with a religious son-of-a-bitch get it in writing. His word isn't worth shit--not when the good Lord taught him how to fuck you on the deal."
Nice quote,
I am sure that I have read somewhere that it is okay to lie if you can by doing so lead some poor athiest to the offering plate.
I was actually thinking this morning:
what if anon actually showed up? My stategy was to if you showed up to ofcourse not accept any money. And to honour your effort I was devising a way to weave a zombie story into the teaching today. Sorry had no intention of showing a film clip.
:)
the rev
Who is anon?
Ha, another fighty type thinking himself daring and smart.
I have to add, Dawn of The Dead rules. Great movie. And I even liked the new one.
Other than that, I hope you're enjoying your holiday. I'm at Moms eating vegetarian ham that she made. Now that's motherly love.
Some further research on the rev.
Looked at the rev's home page http://www.rockass.net/therev/ (linked from "view my complete profile"). Read some of the slightly pornographic short stories (sex and drug themes). Noticed the forums link and found the topics of "pre teen sex pics" and "electro sex toys".
The religion business was a bit slow back then, rev?
Well that is my brothers website, and I have no control over what he puts on that website. As far as my short stories they are mostly stories about my life, and I was not always a Christian.
Now I have been very civil to you, and have engaged in some light hearted banter, why do you feel the need to some how try and drag me down?
the rev
Well Mr Keith Lowell Jensen, will you remove those links from http://www.rockass.net/therev?
It's mighty uncivil of you to associate that trash with your brother.
Sorry, rev, was only pointing out matters of a factual nature.
So did you really get offended about the association between Jesus and zombies?
You've probably heard it before, and don't find it funny anymore?
No I didn't get offended, it just seemed a bit juvenile, and what I find offensive is the same people the talk all kinds of crap about Christian fanatics trying to push their views on others, come on websites that are mostly Christians, and authored by Christians and try and belittle Christians and push their views on us. Now I do not go on athiests blogs and try and push my beliefs on others. And when I do speak to others that are different from me, I do so trying to understand their point of view and really get what they are saying, not belittling them nor trying to push my views on them.
Again my question is why do you want to come belittle other people? What does that do for you? What possible benefit comes from it? Is it enjoyable to you?
the rev
The forum you mention is not really in use anymore so I've been lax about keeping up with it, monitering spam posts like the ones you saw.
I will prune the forum of it's spam. Yes indeed, and thank you for bringing it to my attention.
As for John's stories being pornographic, I would think you a prude to call them such. I don't think you mean it though. I think you're assigning values to John based on his religious affiliation. Values he has not himself professed.
Going around labeling things pornography is actually quite in line with the type of Christian you are probably intending to rail against.
You're free to post whatever you wish, and John can administer these posts as he sees fit, but don't you think it's bad ettiqette to just find a blog that happens to be by a Christian and then begin posting challenges to his over all beliefs rather than responding to the actual post that the comments are attached to? It just seems rude to me. This post for instance was about John's buddy's blog.
I am not a fan of the automobile, but I"m not seeking out a Ford enthusiasts site and commenting about air pollution and oil dependencies on a post about carberators.
As for the Jesus Zombie connection, laughed hardily the first time I heard it. A comedian named Cheese had a good bit on it about a billion years ago. Now it's grown stale. Not offensive but tired.
One last though. Allowing you to be anonymous does not mean that we can't observe that you're using the priveledge poorly. I protect people's rights to be cowardly and stupid every chance I get, and yet I still try to help them to improve when I'm able to do so.
I have been chastened and feel a sense of shame for childish attempts at dragging up old John Cleese jokes. Thankyou, Rev and Keith, for showing me the error of my ways. I offer my utmost apologies.
I wish you a happy Easter.
That was a sincere apology, guys. No joke!
Yay.
Hell if recycling old jokes were a crime I'd be locked up for life.
Happy Zombie Easter, colored egg out of a rabbit's but day, to you too.
How has this turned into a discussion about the Easter story?
Anyway, I have a question for all, including (perhaps especially for) the atheists here:
Should I, as an atheist take the resurrection story seriously? I mean is it worthy of further investigation or is it just some symbolic thing that only indoctrinated can christians get all "excited" about?
well in my opinion it would be worth taking a look at, the "eyewitnesses" died because they were unwilling to recant their testimony, so it would seem there is some reasonable reasons to look into it.
But I haven't really studied other rumours in other traditions very much. I am passionate about my own faith and what we believe, as I have experienced the reality of it, and not feeling arguementative I have not researched the claims of others in order to prove or disprove them.
oh and I hadly call this a discussion about easter.
the rev
As an alleged atheist, rev, I'm not welcome in churches. It's only on forums like this that I can pursue such an investigation.
Thankyou for your reply.
Oh, I forgot to type in my identity of "DonaldDuck" for that last comment. I'm not that annonymous!
you would be welcome at my church. Though I might ask you to not subvert the conversations completely. But if you choose to pursue the matter I would be interested in seeing how you go, and hearing from you along the way.
the rev
Can you elaborate on your request "not to subvert the conversations completely" please?
Well when there is a mixed group of people, it is important that all of the group realize that not everyone is going to be in the same place. Therefore we can all share and express ourselves, but we need to be aware that we cannot always follow the dictates of one individual.
For instance, the children that come to our church:
Sometimes we will plan a whole time around them, we participate with them in some activity that is based more on their age level. However, if we would do that every time we met, it would become a bit irrelevent to many. (although to be honest most of us "adults" seemed to get a lot out of these times)
The same would be for me: I tend to like more meditative lectio divino type studies. But not everyone likes them, so I cannot always follow my inclinations.
Most of the times I have had athiests, or those from other faiths join us, they just realate as they will. Sometimes a subject will be a bit arguementative and that is fine, for the most part they feel a part of the conversation.
A few times we have had someone that made every conversation about either their doubts, complaints, or critiques of theology, ecclesiology, or even our style of church. When one person constantly "subverts" the subject to their own issues, the group dynamic is compromised.
So I in no way mean conformity or silence, but rather a sensitive co-operation. I have also at times had to chastise the more zealous defenders of the faith that this is a time of sharing, not a debate.
If I did not make myself clear enough, let me know. Just some of the difficulties in having and inclusive, and participatory gathering.
the rev
Are you describing church, Rev? Is this what you do Sunday evenings at Ascot Vale?
Doesn't sound like the church I went to over 25 years ago.
What types turn up at these services? Sounds like an (alleged) atheist may not feel out of place.
Sunday nights are not exactly what I described. At Ascot Vale I have to balance a bit more. We have a Sudanese family that doesn't speak much English, an existing group that is a bit more conservative, and my own desire to be more relevent and inclusive.
My goal for Sunday nights (which we don't kick off the new service until the 7th of May) is to provide something a bit less verbally intensive, a bit more engaging, and a bit more embracing of multi media. It will be a larger group, but as we will be seated around tables we will do some discussion stuff, and some experiential learning stuff. But it will be a bit more traditional. I would also not consider it church, but rather a worship time.
What I consider my church is the group that meets on Sunday mornings in each others homes. We also have dinner together on Tuesday nights and meet in smaller groups to confess our sins, and have some accountability for personal religious practices.
I am beginning to have that kind of community with the existing group at Ascot Vale on Thursday nights.
If you would ever want to come visit on a tuesday night, (more social and a bit less threatening), or a Sunday morning you would be more than welcome. The Sunday night gig will be a bit different, but you would again be welcome.
the rev
Sounds like different premises, including peoples homes, are involved there, Rev.
I wouldn't feel comfortable going to a private residence (unless I knew the people), a public building like a church is ok, though.
Well the idea is that relationships would be made outside of the meetings. If you and I met for a few coffees, and then you met the family for tea and a video, you would then very naturally feel comfortable on tuesday night or Sunday morning.
Its interesting that the idea of open discussions, and things sounds appealing to you, but for some reason doing it in a home is upsetting. There are some churches like mine that meet in cafe's or pubs, if you are interested. We are hoping to start more of these kinds of groups throughout the western suburbs. Some will meet in homes, but others will meet in cafe's, pubs, business offices or even the ascot vale building.
the rev
keith can you take down the forum in the old website, it is useless to me now, thanks
the rev
Yeah, I can take it down, but I've got to remember the dang password.
Hmmmmm.
Let me work on it.
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