Thursday, January 05, 2006

Was reading some Bukowski

I really like this poem

ALWAYS

the important
thing
is
the obvious
thing
that
nobody
is
saying.

Bukowski


I hope I spend more time talking about the important things, and less just talking.

the rev

23 comments:

phil said...

Do you know how difficult it is to find Bukowski in the 2nd hand stores?...Anyway thanks for putting me on to him. Watched his doco before Christmas. Didn't realise the influence he had on U2

The Rev said...

Yes I do know, If you get a Bukowski hold on to it. They are very sought after, and very hard to find. Also you might enjoy Barfly the movie he wrote that is autobiographical. It star Mickey Rourke. Bukowski is very dark, and some find him depressing, but for some reason he makes me see some noble fighting spirit in mankind, and he makes me want to write.

the rev

Lionfish said...

Always...

I just wish that they would take the time to answer our questions (rather than declaring that they welcome questions).

Actions speak louder than words.

The Rev said...

I am not sure what that means my friend.

the rev

Anonymous said...

Rev, shouldn't you just be publishing direct passages from the bible, rather than unscriptural poetry?

I thought the Holy spirit only convicts people when the inspired word of God is delivered to them.

Seeing we're only on this earth for a limited sojourn, time is of the essence.

Get serious, Rev. Just the Bible.

Kieren said...

I posted the Bible vs poetry comment above - sorry, forgot to put "Kieren" as identity.

The Rev said...

so did you just come here to talk shit?

the rev

Kieren said...

Look behind the shit and see the concept.

If you only want agreement, "yes-people", or folks on the same wavelength as you, Rev, you'll have less interesting conversation than when there's a diversity of dialog. You'll cover less ideas. And in amongst the shit and other garbage may be the inspiration for your next sermon.

So how about a response on the intellectual level.

The Rev said...

No I have many friends that are not yes men. Your comment made no inteligent point, it just mocked Christians.

If you were serious about your question, no I shouldn't just be posting scripture, because human experience is much more than Christian scriptures, the real question for me is how the scriptures touch the human experience. Bukowski is one of those people that really tap into some deep stuff, and it inspires me.

As to the Holy Spirit convicting people, that really isn't my job is it. But for me personally I have been convicted on many occasions be things outside of scripture, including the writings of Bukowski, the Southpark cartoons, and a drunk I rode a train with.

I am not a biblian, I am a Christian. The bible is part of my faith, but it isn't the totality of it.

But again, what is your purpose here? Are you trying to evangelize me? Are you preaching your gospel of athiesm? If you are I might suggest a more direct approach, your elitist mocking is not really inspiring me much. But welcome anyways.

If you want to get a bit deeper suggest some subjects and I'll start some threads and we can have meaningful converstation rather than just juvenile insults.

the rev

Kieren said...

Well that almost knocked me out of my high chair. Good response, Rev.

As for me suggesting subjects - yes, in due course, I'm in vacation mode at the moment.

There is no gospel of atheism. Atheism is just not asserting there are Gods. I don't go around trying to disprove the existence of God(s) - just don't think there is one. Atheism is a low temperature state for me.

Imagine doing what you're doing without any God looking over you, without expecting eternal rewards. Would be much better than a salesman for Jesus on a super bonus system.

The Rev said...

I expect no eternal rewards, I am rewarded now with a fulfilled and exciting life. I do what I do for love of others and love of Jesus, not on some bonus system.

the rev

Kieren said...

So you don't mind if you end up in hell because you subscribe to an incorrect set of doctrines, or belong to the wrong denomination?

Of course, you say, denominations don't matter. True Christians are found in all churches, aren't they. But how do you know you're one of them? Then again, even that's not important - as long as you "love Jesus" - everythings ok, life's good. I'm reminded of Proverbs 14:12, "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the thereof are the ways of death."

In the same chapter there's one for me, verse 6, "A scorner seeketh wisdom, and findeth it not: but knowledge is easy unto him that understandeth."

Jamin said...

I am assuming that based on your latter comments Keiren that you weren't serious about the whole only quoting the bible thing.

However, for the sake of those playing at home....I just wanted to comment that even the Bible quotes non-scriptural sources such as the Book of Enoch, Jannes and Jambres etc. Obviously Jesus spoke heaps of stuff that was not a scriptural quote...(besides the fact that everything he said instantly became scripture...well on one hand that's true because he is the word...but on the other hand I'm sure at some point he probably said "Sorry - I just farted"...didn't make the synoptics or John!

Kieren said...

For the christian, I would have thought ending up in hell was a fairly serious matter.

For the non-believer, like me, its just an amusing intellectual exercise, in a way. But if it is true...

After all, what's the point of Christianity, if not where you spend eternity? If it's just doing the right thing, being nice, well Christianity is just one system. There are ways, probably better, based on science, and more culturally relevant. Lots of other people said wise things, and had more insight into life than Jesus. Plus, there are better stories around than those in the bible.

The Rev said...

"So you don't mind if you end up in hell because you subscribe to an incorrect set of doctrines, or belong to the wrong denomination?"

I do not believe in a God that sacrificed His Son for our salvation only to let it be lost on not getting the details right. In my opinion the denominations are like the gospels, focused on differing aspects of Christ, they should not be dividing but celebrated.

"Of course, you say, denominations don't matter. True Christians are found in all churches, aren't they. But how do you know you're one of them? Then again, even that's not important - as long as you "love Jesus" - everythings ok, life's good. I'm reminded of Proverbs 14:12, "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the thereof are the ways of death.""

I might suggest in the future you let me speak for myself, I do not think you are yet qualified to speak for me. As to the rest of this post, I don't get what your point is. Jesus is the center of the faith, and we are called to follow Him. I am trying to do that, and encouraging others to do so. But I will meet death just like every one of us will.

In the same chapter there's one for me, verse 6, "A scorner seeketh wisdom, and findeth it not: but knowledge is easy unto him that understandeth."

Again I simply do not understand what you are trying to prove or say. Are you trying to enlighten me? Are you trying to lead me to salvation? Are you trying to correct my theology? Are you just trying to harass me?

You obviously do not know me, you don't know my theology, my lifestyle, nor my faith. If you are just drive by mocking, I hope you are enjoying your self.

Oh and Jamin, dude, Jesus would never fart, don't be rude!!!

:)

the rev

The Rev said...

For the Christian ending up in hell isn't an option.

the rev

Kieren said...

I'm using the mocking style, which often tends to fade as a conversation progresses.

Of course I can't speak for anyone's beliefs. But I can question. I can seek reasons why others believe what they do. They may not want to answer. Sometimes people get angry or defensive when their faith is questioned - that's natural. But because we don't know each other personally, I think we're allowed a little more free reign into these areas - things we would never discuss face to face. And conversations can meander off into interesting tangents. But it's your site - so you have ultimate control, Rev.

Anyway, back on topic: if the bible is not your only source ofinspiration, what is it? Just another book? Does seeking inspiration in Bukowski imply "God's word" is incomplete? You can't really believe its God's word, with all the rubbish in it. Sorry, I digress.

Jamin said...

Keiren,

For my it's like this. I didn't meet the bible and become a Christian. I met Jesus - personally...I tangibly experienced his presence, love, forgiveness...it was amazing. I felt like I could fly. It also literally felt like scales had been taken off my eyes - everything was so bright! even the rocks looked clean and radiant!

Now, I do my darndest to do what he says. I love him - yes real emotional love.

that's my foundation. After that it's a bit of reverse engineering. This is what I mean...I know Jesus is who he says he is/was and I trust him. Therefore the bible is His word - it's all true - I accept it on those grounds even when I don't understand bits.

when the storms come - just like the amazing story of when he was in the boat with the disciples during the storm, I remind myself that Jesus is my boat - and I trust him.

It all starts with Jesus. We all do well to ask ourselves the question that Pilate's wife asked him: "What will YOU do with Jesus?"

Kieren said...

Would a separate topic on the nature and meaning of Christian belief be warranted - which is where some threads in this conversation seem to be going. What does the Rev think?

In particular, jamin, you said you "experienced Jesus". You're probably aware that people have similar "i've seen the light" experiences accross all cultures. And that they usually attribute them to the faith in which they were brought up or which is the background to their culture. So maybe this experience is something not particularly "christian" after all. Possibly a special type of neurological experience not yet well understood by science - but there is investigation going on (if you;re interested, I'll try and source some websites on the topic). And being deeply emotional experiences, they can be life-changing.

Kieren said...

So, Rev, my first suggested topic of discussion is the field of neurotheology. Here's a wikipedia intro link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurotheology

The Rev said...

Okay, I'll start another topic later today. Have a bit on this morning as you might have suspected.

the rev

Lionfish said...

'neurotheology' interesting topic. Again will not prove / disprove the existence of God or the validity of the spiritual experience...Only that the brain has a part to play in our religious/spiritual experiences.

After all God asked us to love him with our heart, MIND and soul.

Jamin said...

It always amazes me how one can scoop sugar with a spoon, put the sugar in your coffee with a spoon, stir the coffee with a spoon, the coffee is sweeter and yet still believe that "there is no spoon".