Thursday, January 15, 2009

Was very angry with Chuck Smith (Calvary Chapel Founder)

Now let me start by saying that I love Chuck Smith. The guy is a living legend, and example of God's love. For those of you who don't know, Chuck Smith is the pastor of Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa California. He was one of the people that really embraced the Jesus movement, allowed rock music in the church, and by loving and encouraging young people to radical faith wound up overseeing one of the biggest churches in America, as well has inspiring the planting of literally hundreds of other churches. Many of the Calvary affiliated churches now are some of the most recognized churches in the country.

But more than that, Chuck always seemed the voice of God's love and grace. Whenever I listened to him, I felt the love of the Father. Maybe a myth, but I heard that after they installed new carpet in the sanctuary of Calvary Chapel one of the elders put up a sign "no bare feet" in order to protect the carpet. Chuck took the sign down, threw it at the elders and said, I will tear the carpet out before I stop one person from coming in to this church. That seems true to me, as that was the kind of guy I have always thought him to be.

So what made me so mad? Well almost every week day Chuck hosts a show called pastors perspective, which is a call in show where people can ask questions. But last week he had a special guest, one of the generals from Israels army. What we heard for almost an entire hour was pro Israeli propaganda (now I for one actually believe that the Israeli propaganda is probably a slight bit closer to the truth than the palestinian propaganda, but that is besides the point). Now that bugged me, but whatever. When I lost my mind was when Chuck Smith said, "if I was in charge in Israel, for every bomb Hamas sent into Israel, I would send ten missles into gaza targeting their government buildings! its the only thing those people will understand" Now in case you think I might have misunderstood, I didn't, they continued to joke about that with the general saying he wished Chuck was in charge, and all three of the host urging Americans to support Israel and their show of defensive aggression.

Return ten to one, it is the only thing "those people" will understand!!!

What the hell is that? I must admit I started screaming at my radio. Now as a nation, we are just as guilty as Israel, or Hamas for that matter, but a Christian leader saying that!!! How can a follower of Jesus say such things? Jesus, the one we are supposed to be following, the one who's commandments we are supposed to keep said:

"do not return evil for evil, but good for evil"

"If a man strike you on the right cheek, turn to him your left"

"love your enemies and do good to those who hate you"

"those that live by the sword will die by the sword"

"blessed are the merciful"

"blessed are the peace makers"

and I could go on and on. When will we stand up against this completely antichrist teaching of redemptive violence? When will we as the church begin to live out the mandate to be followers of Jesus, willing to die for our love of others, but not to kill for it? When will we realize the truth of Martin Luther King Jr.'s speach that said, "darkness cannot cast out darkness, only light can do that, hate cannot cast out hate, only love can do that"

Chuck, I love you my brother, but boy were you wrong on this one.

rev

78 comments:

Troy said...

Welcome back Rev, nice to read you again. I think that part of the human condition is to want to bring others to submission. This takes various forms, such as bombing the crap out of other people. In our personal lives we use excuses for our drive to submit people, whether it be just doing our job or restoring order in the household, but I feel that much of this is the feeling bringing that submission out of someone else brings us. This is feed like a meme (thankyou richard dawkins) to the rest of the community, bringing about a national desire to make all other nations submit to us. To hide this truth we can look for so called just causes of defensive aggression to cover the fact that we love to bully those less capable then ourselves into submission. Of course it is much more complicated then this, however, being a Christian has to be a rejection of this human flaw and like was written, cast out darkness with light.
Chuck Smith your a peckerhead.

Thankful Paul said...

Hello!

Bec said...

Thanks for posting this.

Chuck Smith's comments are just so, so wrong. What does he think it is, a computer game or real life where innocent civilians, including small children, are being slaughtered?

Chris Lorensson said...

Hmm.

Yeah, I don't think we should send missiles to their government buildings, either. It doesn't seem like something Jesus would have done. I love Chuck as much as the next. He was my pastor for several years, and I think I know his heart. And I'm confident that his heart is right, but maybe this just came out of frustration. Still– biblical wisdom seems to be that we should oftentimes keep quiet unless we have something positive to say about someone. I admit that I've said some really stupid things which I hadn't thought through beforehand, and it hurt people. Either way though, I wouldn't have even killed Saddam if I have a gun in my hand. I think his judgement is up to God. (But I would have been more than happy to lock him up for awhile) ;-)

I understand your anger, Rev. I think because you and the girls have been so gripped by the heart of God for people, it's never nice to hear that someone wants to kill them– corrupt governor or not!

But in all sincerity and love, I don't think you should post things like this online because it makes people think bad things about a great man.

Miss you bro. Send the girls our love.

The Rev said...

Chris,

that man said those things on international radio, representing our Lord in public. Why wouldn't I confront that in public? And I was very careful to explain what a good man he actually is, which is why it was so hard for me to accept

rev

David said...

Have your entourage of "yes people" forgotten the judgemental God of the old testament who commanded mass slaughter? Why do they not mention the coming judgement where God will fling people into a tortuous eternity - Jesus in judgement mode will not be the meek and mild persona your wishful thinking imagines today.

Of course, this same entourage probably practices a "pick and choose" faith where they reject the unpleasant bits of Christianity and keep the happy nice parts.


Your non-radical Jesus may say "blessed are the peacemakers", but it's just another case of "do as I say, not as I do". Jesus is a massive hypocrite. Likewise his even more ordinary followers.

Troy said...

Nice entry into the fray David,
I wonder what you believe - are you religious, an atheist, not sure? I would probably say from the feel of your comments that your atheist? But the sweeping judgement of all those who have responded to this post and of all Christians in general deviates away from the sort of measured intellectual response of the atheists I know. At the heart of what your saying, I think there is some truth. There is so much difference in the views of many Christians it is incredible. From a nation of so called Christians who are pro killing in its correct context, to a loving community caring for the sick and dying hugging trees. I find it hard sometimes to know what bible these people are reading.

The Rev said...

Dave is a friend of mine that God put on this earth to be a constant pain in my ass. Praise the Lord

:)

The problem ofcourse is what do you use as your interpretational lens. As all ancient literature it must be at least in some way interpreted. Many evangelicals interpret the bible, by the entire bible. Which in my opinion elevates the bible itself into a category of almost idol status.

However, if you use the life, teachings, death and resurrection of Jesus as your interpretive lens, then you come to a completely different point of view.

Jesus far from being non radical, actually calls us to the most radical of all notions, that we can exist, indeed are made to exist outside of violence and oppression, and invites us to be the revolution that does in fact live that way.

I love you David

rev

Anonymous said...

I'm not totally condoning the comments made on this particular show. But... I'm also not summarily dismissing the tenor either. Now all analogies break down at some point, but allow me to put forth a poor one just for the sake of argument.

Let's say you hear something in the middle of the night and stumbling out of bed and into the hallway you notice that your daughter's door is closed and the noise is coming from inside. You open the door to find a man who's holding her mouth closed w/his hand and is trying to calm her down. How do you respond?

How would Jesus respond? Can we be certain of His response? Is His manifested iterations of peaceful responses enough to extrapolate that He'd respond peaceably in all circumstances... even those where others are being physically victimized?

The analogy is poor... but take that and multiply it by pretending now your responsible not only for your family... but for the safety and defense of a nation.

How peaceably do you deal w/the intruder? What if he isn't responding to the peaceful tactics?

The carnal man in me says... you keep turning up the volume of your response until he hears you. Until your speaking a language that resonates w/him... or ... dare I think it? Incapacitates him.

I think Chuck may just have some of that carnal man in him as well. So... while his remarks may have been flippant and inappropriate... I can see some merit in it. Or at least... I can identify w/it.

But... let me also say I'm glad that Rev posted this. Because we need people who are constantly pushing us to do what's contrary to our nature of eye-for-eye.

Blessings to you John.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.


Troy

The Rev said...

Thanks troy,

I can't tell you how often that scenario gets brought up. Well lets just say that I have never faced that scenario, nor do I expect to, infact most people never do, most people. However, what are the options? Get the gun and start firing bullets? maybe your daughter lives maybe she doesn't. Maybe I should use my particular giftings as a pro fighter, and jiu jitsu and wrestling expert to subdue the guy? and what happens if in the process my daughter watches her father get murdered and then she gets hurt anyways? Or if my daughter watches her father kill someone with his bare hands? Is this a good answer?

The error is in thinking that we can just go with the flow when it comes to non violence, but violence takes lots of training. Which is not the truth at all, non violence take even more training than violence. SO we must learn to speak differently under extreme pressure, we must learn to use our body language differently, we must learn techniques to deal with all kinds of situations. This is not simple, or easy.

But in my opinion Jesus shows us that we should be willing to die for the kingdom, and die for others, but not kill for anything.

rev

Gods_Rhema said...

It is an interesting matter indeed, you must at least converse before you take action. I think your spot on mate when you said, "But in my opinion Jesus shows us that we should be willing to die for the kingdom, and die for others, but not kill for anything". That also doesnt mean you cannot defend others or yourself,as you pointed out, it would be stupid not to. I do not agree with violence nor Chuck`s comment.

David, love ya man....but Jesus will always be them most radical man ever to walk the planet sorry dude. The O.T. God you portray too is still the same God today mate...still the same.

Anonymous said...

just a comment not involving god,or jesus,or any organized religion ,there is spirituality,which is morality with certain rules and beliefs,it also espouses non-violence, compassion,tolerance,etc,And there are some really powerful books on this subject,just throwing in a different veiwpoint in this conversation which is still at the crux about convincing ,whether it be for one side or the other..It's still a manipulation,just let it be,live and let live..Do your own thing ,and live in love,which will lead the way..
i'm fully aware that by uttering these words i am too,also taking a side,therein lies the paradox..

Anonymous said...

Obama will take care of chuck and all the white devils of religious profanity

- Colbert nation

Anonymous said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xyj2DQu9zMs
are u really that unaware of whats going on oin this world?watch this,if u dare..About the vatican,come on,don't discount something if u hav'nt even experienced it..

The Rev said...

wow a conspiracy theory, how original!!!

But even if all that video says is true, what does that have to do with being merciful? loving your enemies? not returning evil for evil?

nothing!

rev

edzepplin said...

If you want to know about chuckie look at EVERY sermon by lonnie frisbee,
Chuckie " annointed" him, and chuckie son admits they wish they kept all of lonnie's exploits hidden from the little sheep.Calvery chaple considers itself "Soft Pentecostalism " not charasmatic He's a "moses leader to his flock like all calvery preachers.............IT IS A SHEPHERDING MOVEMENT BY UNCHALLENGED LITTLE TWERPS.
Sit a listen to Chuck drone on from a tape recorder
about pentecostal dogma and you can be a Calvery "Shepherd" or prophet or anionted few.

Bevy said...

I don't know if you've ever read Revelation - BUT there's a tad bit of judgment in there too. And if you take Jesus at his Word - how about when he overturned the money changers tables and rebuked the Pharisees and Saducees - they didn't like Him much.
I would've liked to hear the piece you're talking about on the radio!
The one thing that bugged me in your post was that you 'could see one side of the argument of the Israelites and the Palestinians'?? Huh?
It matters who's right in my mind. If you listen to the liberal press you'll never hear about Israel - unless their sticking up for themselves then it's HOW DARE THEY!!! You do remember the 1948 thingy where the U.N. gave them BACK their homeland??? Oh - yah and that whole Holocaust thing?
The Jews have been THRU THE WRINGER on this earth.
I take Israel's point of view on this. They are SURROUNDED by enemies - the U.S.A. BARELY IS ON their side ANYMORE! So what you are hearing in anyone's voice re: the whole fight over there is the frustration with Israel NOT BEING able to do what they need to - to secure their borders and not have bombs lobbed at them OFTEN - maybe DAILY - but the MSM won't report that huh? The ONLY time you hear about what's going on in Israel is WHEN Israel is sticking up for themselves ... IF G** forbid they lob a bomb at a GOV'T building ... oh NO!!!
So I can understand Chuck's frustration. It's a very difficult situation.
And most likely it won't be settled until Jesus comes back - until then ... hang onto your hats.
Jesus also said - there will be wars and rumors OF wars. ...

The Rev said...

not sure if you want comment from me or not but...

its my blog so I'll say what I want :)

First off, you are assuming I am ignorant about the magnificent complexity of the middle east problem? What could you possibly have seen in any of my posts to suggest I do not understand these things?

Secondly, Jesus talked about wars and rumors of wars, but not about Christians starting, or finishing them. For the first three hundred years of the church they were strict pacifists, anyone who bore the sword, whether in the military, the judicial system, or as an athlete was not allowed baptism unless they forsook it.

Thirdly, Jesus says to show mercy, mercy is not giving back ten fold evil.

The liberal press, the conservative press, the foreign press, I don't give a shit about any of it. The fact is Jesus is the prince of peace, and we are called to be peace makers, not war mongers, no matter how just our cause appears to be.

Israel suffered horribly at the hands of the nazis, all the while the church, supporting nationalism did nothing. When the church of Jesus, refuses to follow our savior in the ways of non violent love, condemning all war, and becoming willing to suffer persecution and even death itself to protect the victims of injustice (like corrie ten boom and her family did), but refuse to take life for it, we are flat out living in rebellion to our king.

rev

rainielove said...

I have to agree with my earthy friend Rev. I have some cred concerning this. I was a member of Calvary Chapel back when it was still in a giant circus tent. I have met Chuck personally myself, and I have to say that when I did, I could see Heaven literally beaming out of his eyes. However, he must have been experiencing some kind of temporary insanity by supporting and cheering on ANY kind of war, which I believe to be the worst sort of man-made disaster. Not only that, but too much focus on politics takes energy away from God's spirit moving through us to display the ultimate in world power, His Agape love. (see "me" during the entire Bush Administration. I almost lost MY mind! Torturing people to justify war for the sake of greed! Who would Jesus bomb??) The revelation of God's love was Jesus' revolution. All the rest is merely impermanent.

Don said...

Subtext: One of the young women who was turned away in bare feet that day was Marsha Stevens. Later, she came out as a Lesbian to Chuck and Kay Smith and was shunned by the Costa Mesa Church. For all of the talk of love Smith has always lashed out in a mean spirited way at people he appears to deem enemies of the faith. He has a long history of ties to violent right wing extremists in Israel. His sermon's after 9-11 voiced the same "blame pagan America" rhetoric espoused by Falwell.

Anonymous said...

A friend of mine started a Calvary Chapel within the past year and asked me to go for a special event. I saw Rodrigo Rodriguez; bot my husband and I were so touched that we thought we would go back to see what this church is about. Well, the next speaker is Amir from Israel; Israeli Capt.
I felt the same way The Rev did when I heard him say "if it's us or them, we push the button first". I couldn't believe my ears!
And like little idiots, everyone laughed at his stupidity, said their 'amens'; as if there are no children, or women, or old people near where the missile will land!
I saw it very clearly; this is a business, folks. Not a church. It's money; power & politics all rolled into one.
That did it for me; I'll never go back.

salvador said...

genesis 12:3 and I will bless them that bless thee, and him that curseth thee will I curse: and in thee shall all the families of the earth be blessed. dear rev if you are a brother in Christ as is chuck i love you in Christ and even if any one isn't in Christ our zeal should be that they come to Christ!by the love that we have one for another and the meekness of the gospel that we preach. and as to your comment or to any other that is hanging in the balance well i only have this to say stick to what GOD says not to what we think read genesis 12:3 and let GOD proclaim his word for his word will not change. in his grip Salvador.......

Rich said...

Too bad you didn't go to Chuck on this one. Instead, you decided to voice your anger to an unbelieving world; giving cause for the enemies of God to curse his name. Chuck may have been wrong (he struggles with a sinful nature like the rest of us), but what you did, Rev, was worse because you have given non-Christians the fuel they look for to remain in unbelief. You have the right to speak your mind, but if you're a Christian, you should not have gone to the world to vent your anger when you have a problem with a fellow believer.

The Rev said...

I wrote a response to Chuck, and got no answer. In addition, Chuck put this message out on public airwaves, so the fact that my response to Chuck had to also be public, in order to show to the public that not all Christians act, or think like this. Far from turning people against Christianity, in my experience these public "rebukes" cause people to reflect upon the idea that not all Christians are war mongering, fear addicts.

rev

Rainie said...

I'm with you, Rev. I applaude your courage. As Paul Newman said, "anyone with character will have enemies. " I don't see you as judgemental, just honest. Thanks

Jeepman said...

It seems amazing to me how many people can pluck certain verses out of the bible without looking at the bible as a whole. I will say right off the bat, that I think Pastor Chuck's comments were right on target!!

Unfortunately the politically correct agenda has turned Christian men into a bunch of wimps that are afraid to stand up for what they believe.

Revelation 19:13 says that Jesus is coming back in a robe dipped in blood. Does that sound like a wimp to you? Not at all! It sounds like He's getting ready for battle! Now if we are made in the image of God, how can we then be wimpy when it comes to the displeasure of battle?

The founding fathers of America would never have established a country of freedom without war!! You my friend, would be speaking in a British accent, or worse...FRENCH!!

In Washington DC, on the monument for our soldiers, these words are engraved, "FREEDOM IS NOT FREE!" I think that sums it up quite nicely!

Blood has been spilled for the good of the gospel and for the good of freedom! War is a horrible and messy business, but if our brave men and women who were willing to lay down their lives, had not done so, you would not have the freedom to express the views that you do here so liberally.

The fact is, when you look at the religion of Islam, and you read the Quran, it proves that Islam is a religion of hate and violence! The Quran states that ALL of those who are not Islamic, ALL of those who are Jews or Christians, are infidels, and ALL infidels should be killed!! The ONLY thing they understand is war and murder! Plain and simple!!

Had the world not stood up and taken out Hitler, he would have never stopped his murderous rampage! So before you start calling people names, you really need to do your homework on the subject, and reference the WHOLE bible and not just a few verses!

Jeepman said...

Don,

There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self control, brutal, not lovers of good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than God, having a form of godliness but denying it's power. Have nothing to do with them. (2 Tim 3:1-5)

It seems to me that Chuck was doing exactly what the bible says to do concerning those who are stuck in perpetual sin.

The Rev said...

jeepman,

who are we supposed to follow? The way I read it, we are called to follow the Jesus of the gospels, not the Jesus of revelation. Why? Well simply because we cannot follow the Jesus of the apocalypse.

Now you accuse me of being a wimp, and taking a few verses and building a doctrine on them. Lets look at each of these individually.

I am a former cage fighter, I am a former bullfighter, and a former repo man. You really think I have my understanding because I am scared? In addition, how in the world do you find being willing to die for peace as being somehow the politics of fear? I have never shied away from the call to be willing to die for my neighbor, nor even for peace. But I will not kill for it. Do you think it takes more courage to march into battle with a gun, or without?

As to your scriptural critique, how much do you know about biblical interpretive theory? Hermenteutics, even the kind I disagree with, (because they place the bible above Jesus, who is the way the truth and the life) says quite plainly that the simple, literal verses, are those that are to be used to understand the more complex and metaphorical ones. In which case, the gospels, are much more able to tell us the way forward, than the apocalyptic book of revelation.

In addition, it is not a few verses, it is many verses. Jesus says very clearly that you are not to return evil for evil, but good for evil. Jesus says that we are to turn the other cheek. Jesus says that we are to not violently oppose an evil doer. Jesus says that we are to love even our enemies. Jesus says that just like rain falls on all people regardless of their goodness or evilness, we are to love all men perfectly. And what is more important, Jesus lived out that calling.

If you think I making up some new politically correct theory, you should look into the history of the church, which for the first three hundred years were almost universally pacifist. During the first 150 years they would not even baptise someone who was in the army, a judge, or an athlete because they spilled blood.

It is not until Constantine makes Christianity the official religion of Rome, that we see wide spread acceptance of military action accepted by the church.

rev

Jeepman said...

Raine,

So let me get this straight. It's judgmental to say someone is sinning against God because the bible says so, but it's courageous to take the bible out of context when it fits a certain agenda?

HOGWASH!! All of those who are enemies of Israel are enemies of God!! The bible is very clear about this! The political correctness of the emerging church needs to be THROWN OUT of God believing establishments!! PERIOD!!

The Rev said...

so let me get this straight, taking Jesus literally is taking things out of context?

So tell me how it is out of context? Explain how when Jesus said return good for evil he meant to bomb others if they do bad to you? Or how loving your enemies really means bombing them? It seems that maybe you are the one who is twisting Jesus' direct words to fit your agenda

rev

The Rev said...

or how about your use of the enemies of Israel are enemies of God silliness. Have you not read that it was God himself who sent armies to destroy Israel, to take them into captivity, and exile? Is God therefore the enemy of himself?

Now some of those that call themselves the emerging church may be a bit less inclined to get into a dialogue with you about the scripture. But I believe one hundred percent in the authority of scriptures. I just believe that Jesus is the center of our faith, and the center of our understanding of scripture.

rev

Jeepman said...

Rev,

I apologize if I inferred that you personally, were a wimp. That was not what I meant by the statement I made. I was referring to the political correctness that has infiltrated the church.

Secondly, being a student of Calvary Chapel Bible College, I understand where you are coming from, but I do not believe you are accurate in your assessment of Chuck or the dynamics of what has been happening between the Jews and the Palestinians. Consistantly, over and over, Israel has been forced into concessions in the name of "peace." The Palestinians have not once made ANY concession. The Palestinians have also repeatedly violated the peace treaty agreements, but the news only seems to report when Israel defends itself.

Zec 14, God says, "I will seek to destroy all the nations that have come against Jerusalem."

In 1991, George Bush Sr. sponsored the Madrid Peace conference to get Israel to give up their land, and immediately on that day, a storm hit the northeast Atlantic, and the storm was sending 30 foot waves into Bush's home in Maine.

August 24,1992, the Madrid conference started in Washington DC to push Israel to give up more land. On the very same day, Hurricane Andrew destroyed the states of Florida and Louisiana.

On January 15,1994, Bill Clinton was in Geneva calling on Israel to leave the Golan Heights. Within 24 hours, a major earthquake hit Northridge, California producing the largest earthquake in US history, and the second largest disaster in US history.

On August 24, 2005, the very day that the Jews were evicted from the Golan Heights, tropical storm 12 emerged in the Bahamas. Within 72 hours it was Hurricane Katrina, which became the worst disaster to hit North America in history!

Coincidence? I don't think so! God has blessed America in many many ways, but it seems He has not forgotten His promise to Israel.

Gen 12:3 - I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse, and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.

If that means that I am to fight against Israel's enemies, then so be it! America has been blessed abundantly because we have been on Israel's side. But by His own word, God cannot continue to bless a country that goes against Israel. God promised that land to them, and all the political correctness in the world is not going to change what God has said!

Rev, God will not be mocked! His word remains true, ALWAYS AND FOREVER!

Jeepman said...

Rev,

You are forgetting that Jesus also said, "You will know them by their fruit."

The Rev said...

no, I am not forgetting you shall know them by their fruit. But Jesus does not say to kill those with bad fruit. In fact, it is Jesus that curses the fig tree, (the symbol of Israel) for not living up to its purpose even in the off season.

The fact that Calvary Chapel, and many other evangelical groups so conveniently seem to forget is that Jesus actually means to be taken seriously during the sermon on the mount. As is evidenced by his finishing comments, those that do these things build their house on the rock, those that do not "do these things" do not.

You cannot love your enemy as you bomb them, it is not possible. If you do a little research you will find that it is actually not only the clear teaching of scripture, but the clear practice of the scriptural church to practice non violence. Justin Martyr actually saying, "when Christ disarmed Peter, he disarmed us all"

If you believe in the sovereign rights of Israel (which I believe you have a biased view upon, they are equal in their injustice) I am not saying to do nothing. I am saying to do what the bible says, "do good to those that do evil to you" Not to accept evil, but to stand against it without violence.

You have still not showed me how anything I said is out of context. Jesus is very very clear, and He is the Lord of even the bible. So when he says, NOTHING OF THE ENTIRE LAW WILL DEPART UNTIL ALL IS FULFILLED, it actually means, until all is perfected. And He then proceeds to perfect it. Saying, its not enough not to murder, if you are consumed with anger you must seek reconciliation. It is not enough not to sleep with other women, if you are consumed with lust, you must flee it with all vigor, ect.

Jesus is the way, the truth and the life, and we must follow Him

rev

Jeepman said...

Rev,

It's not that what you quoted is out of context or wrong at all. You are trying to pit me against Jesus' words and that has nothing to do with my point.

I said that when you take one or two verses out of the bible without taking the whole bible into consideration you loose sight of the big picture.

Are you saying that there has never, and will never be any cause for war? Are you saying that war has not brought about good? Are you saying that all of the brave men and women who died for the cause of freedom died in vain??

Did not Jesus turn the tables over in the temple because they were cheating the believers? There is such a thing as righteous anger, and Jesus showed by example that there is nothing wrong with righteous anger.

You are right! We are to love and forgive our enemies. But NO WHERE in the bible does it say to be a doormat!!

Let me just take for instance this verse:

Prov 21:22 - A wise man attacks the city of the mighty, and pulls down the stronghold in which they trust.

What do you do with that verse? Do you see how easy it is to take one part of the bible without the rest of it, and turn it into something else?

You must believe that it is ok to fight and defend, because you are defending your belief to me, right?

My point is, that you may not agree with what Chuck said, and that is perfectly ok, but calling him names and stirring up dissension against him, was not the way to handle it. (Prov 16:28)

Furthermore, you did not come close to addressing the issues at hand, which were; God's promise to Israel, God's warning to other nations, the liberal media bias, and that fact that America is going to be punished severely if we keep going against Israel, and against the God of Israel, not to mention how many times Israel has been stabbed in the back by the Palestinians!

What we seem to have is a stalemate between Israel and the Palestinians. The Palestinians believe in Allah (who is not God by the way) and Mohammed. They are driven, not by a right to settle and live peacefully, but rather they believe that the Jews should be wiped off the map! Plain and simple.

But the Jews know that God promised that land to them, and it is rightfully theirs. They have even made concessions to keep the peace and help the Palestinians, but the Palestinians will keep fighting and keep crying "foul" and keep terrorizing Israel until they are destroyed.

Now, who do you think God is going to defend?

And, what side of the battle do you think the United States should be on?

What side would YOU rather be on?


.

The Rev said...

jeepman,

You are against Jesus' words. Jesus actually changed the way things were done. In the past it was okay to go to war and kill, Jesus says, the perfect way is to not kill. This has nothing to do with being a doormat. I never said anything to suggest that. We are to stand up for justice, we are to die for justice, we are not to kill for it. This is the clear teaching of Jesus.

The old testament, which you seem to justify yourself with, is part of the whole counsel of God, but it is perfected by Jesus. Which is why we eat pork, worship on Sundays, and no longer kill animals. You cannot read the old testament outside of the relevance of Jesus.

As to the temple cleansing, isn't it interesting that in that non violent action, not only did Jesus not hit anyone, (which would have immediately made him guilty of a capital crime under Roman rule), but he also was very careful to turn over the money changers tables, but not those that sold birds. Doesn't sound like out of control aggression, or anger, sounds like a well thought out plan, perfectly executed.

Is there ever a place for war? I do not believe Jesus says there is. But, even if there is, how about this...

America, has not once, in its entire history ever once lived up to the Augustines just war theory, (which by the way was just adding some Christian words to Cicero's just war theory)

Do you believe that Jesus would ever justify the killing of innocent children? That is what Chuck advocated. Were they the targets? No, but collateral damage is just words. Tell me how you would accept collateral damage if your wife and kids got killed when the police bombed a bank to stop a robbery.

I think you might find if you do a bit of actual research, instead of listening to the standard rhetoric of the evangelical church, that the teachings of Jesus are clear, the early history of the church is clear, and the Spirit of God is actually calling the church to a clear outpouring of love, instead of violence.

The example of the Amish to the mass murder at their school, is the way Christians are meant to react to violence, with love, and forgiveness, and goodness. The fruit of the Spirit is love, and gentleness, and kindness. There is no fruit of the Spirit that is revenge, or tactical murder.

Is it practical? Doesn't matter, Jesus said it, Jesus lived it, His disciples said it and lived it as well, and so did their disciples. Seems like we are supposed to live it to, not make excuses to follow the ways of the world.

rev

The Rev said...

btw, I read my post again, and I did not in one place call Chuck names. In fact I said that I loved and admired him, but that I thought he was wrong, and that the teachings of redemptive violence were anti CHrist

rev

Jeepman said...

Rev,

Do you believe that Jesus is God?

Jeepman said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
The Rev said...

yes I absolutely believe that Jesus is God, I also believe that Jesus meant us to do what He said. I also believe that Jesus, being God, can show us the better way.

As to your other comment...

come on, you are holding me responsible for what someone else said? Are you saying that contrary to all of Calvary Chapel doctrine Church is not to be questioned? That he is beyond mistake? That sounds a bit like popery, you aren't catholic are you?

The fact is you are so invested in your tradition, that you are not seeing the scriptures clearly. First of all we start with Jesus, God in flesh, He is not a foot note He is the center of our faith, and he is very very clear that violence is not His way.

But, if you want to go back to the Old Testament, how many times did God allow Israel to be devastated in battle? And how many times did Israel get scolded for looking to someone else for help besides God? And how in the world does blessing Israel mean giving them arms, and supporting them in war?

In addition, Jesus comes to be a light to the Jew and the Gentile. Paul says there is no Jew or Gentile, Slave or Free, Male or Female.

If God is punishing people using storms, and such, then why does he punish America, but not Iran? Or Afganistan? Or Osama himself?

Perhaps you should focus your attention more on the one you call Lord, and follow Him, rather than a denomination

rev

Jeepman said...

Rev,

If you believe that Jesus Christ is God, and the bible says that God doesn't change, then you have to take into consideration that the God of the Old Testament is still the same as the God of the New Testament.

There are clearly occasions where God approved of war, and even ordered His servants to go to war.

Many people make the mistake of reading what the Bible says in Exodus 20:13, “You shall not kill,” and then seeking to apply this command to war. However, the Hebrew word literally means “the intentional, premeditated killing of another person with malice; murder.” God often ordered the Israelites to go to war with other nations (1 Samuel 15:3; Joshua 4:13). God ordered the death penalty for numerous crimes (Exodus 21:12, 15; 22:19; Leviticus 20:11). So, God is not against killing in all circumstances, but only murder. War is never a good thing, but sometimes it is a necessary thing. In a world filled with sinful people (Romans 3:10-18), war is inevitable.

In the Old Testament, God ordered the Israelites to “take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites” (Numbers 31:2). Deuteronomy 20:16-17 declares, “However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them…as the LORD your God has commanded you.” Also, 1 Samuel 15:18 says, “Go and completely destroy those wicked people, the Amalekites; make war on them until you have wiped them out.” Obviously God is not against all war. Jesus is always in perfect agreement with the Father (John 10:30), so we cannot argue that war was only God’s will in the Old Testament. God does not change (Malachi 3:6; James 1:17).

Jeepman said...

Jesus’ second coming will be exceedingly violent. Revelation 19:11-21 describes the ultimate war with Christ, the conquering commander who judges and makes war “with justice” (v. 11). It’s going to be bloody (v. 13) and gory. The birds will eat the flesh of all those who oppose Him (v. 17-18). He has no compassion upon His enemies, whom He will conquer completely and consign to a “fiery lake of burning sulfur” (v. 20).

It is an error to say that God never supports a war. Jesus is not a pacifist. In a world filled with evil people, sometimes war is necessary to prevent even greater evil. If Hitler had not been defeated by World War II, how many more millions would have been killed? If the American Civil War had not been fought, how much longer would African-Americans have had to suffer as slaves?

War is a terrible thing. Some wars are more “just” than others, but war is always the result of sin (Romans 3:10-18). At the same time, Ecclesiastes 3:8 declares, “There is…a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace.” In a world filled with sin, hatred, and evil (Romans 3:10-18), war is inevitable. Christians should not desire war, but neither are Christians to oppose the government God has placed in authority over them (Romans 13:1-4; 1 Peter 2:17). The most important thing we can be doing in a time of war is to be praying for godly wisdom for our leaders, praying for the safety of our military, praying for quick resolution to conflicts, and praying for a minimum of casualties among civilians on both sides (Philippians 4:6-7).

Also Matt 10:34 Jesus says; “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword.

Luke 22:35-38 - Then Jesus asked them, “When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?” “Nothing,” they answered.
He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.
It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors’; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.”
The disciples said, “See, Lord, here are two swords.” “That is enough,” he replied.

Rom 13:4. For he is God’s servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.

So if you don’t take the whole bible into consideration, your position doesn’t wash.

As far as your other comment Rev, you make quite alot of assumptions about me. It’s not about tradition at all, it’s about what God’s word has said. The WHOLE word!

The Rev said...

So if God never changes, I assume you worship on Saturday? and stop doing any work including shopping on Friday at sundown? When is the last time you sacrificed an animal? You don't shave your beard? You stone adulterers? Did you return to your family home after fifty years?

And lest you make some silly mistakes with "atonement theory", let me remind you that the sabbath is actually pre law.

You see, God actually did change, He became man. And he stopped dealing with humanity through a nation, and now does so through a church that is charged with becoming Jesus to the world. In other words, we are the ones filled with God's Spirit, and now we are Jesus to the world.

I am very well aware of the Old Testament scriptures, and the proper definition of the word murder in the ten commandments. But Jesus actually goes beyond.

So tell me, how do you get around Jesus words? How do you justify taking the Old Testament over Jesus' direct, literal, commands?

As to the two verses you spoke of concerning Jesus himself, please tell me you see the context of both of them? One Jesus is saying that following the kingdom of heaven will cause division in families, not that it will have us go to war. That is very, very apparent. As did Jesus prophecy about how the world would treat the church. The fact that Jesus' very own disciples understood that is easily born out in the fact that they never carried the sword, nor ever used it, believing it the way of the cross to love even those killing them.

As to the apocalyptic Jesus, well your theory of the end times is only 160 years old, it was not believed for 1800 years of the church. It actually needs to completely contradict scripture in order to be true.

Do a little research and you will see that the claims of dispensational theology fall apart with very little outside agitation.

Chuck was not speaking in love, he was not practicing grace, or forgiveness, nor was he returning good for evil, and loving his enemies. These are the clear teachings of Jesus.

rev

Jeepman said...

Rev,

Jesus says in Mark 2:27 that the sabbath was made for man. Does God need the sabbath to worship himself? It does NOT say that the sabbath was made for God!

You are completely missing the point! You need to go back and re-read what I posted.

You said that God deals with humanity through a church. That's funny, because I thought God deals with humanity through Christ, as the New Testament clearly teaches!

Rev, you are unable or unwilling to look at the bible as a whole. I can see that I am wasting my valuable time trying to explain to you, that God should never be put in a box. You have criticized and caused dissension against a man of God, for simply following the bible as a whole.

I will pray for you my friend.

God bless!

The Rev said...

it appears you are the one unwilling to look at Jesus at the Lord of even the scriptures.

You said it yourself, Jesus said that He is Lord of the Sabbath, and that Sabbath was made for man. But in the old testament if you didn't keep the Sabbath you were to be stoned to death. So what changed?

You must read the scriptures in light of Jesus, as Jesus, is the Lord. Jesus is the way the truth and the life. The bible is God's word, it is not God Himself, but Jesus is.

So when Jesus says to follow Him, he means it. When Jesus says to follow His teachings He means it.

What possible reason would I have to believe what I believe other than following Christ? I am a strong, powerful well trained man, don't you think I would much rather follow the way of violence? I could protect my family. I belong to the most powerful nation in the world, I can fear nobody if I hold to the way of the world.

God however, has shown us a more excelent way. God shows us the way of non violence. Of standing against oppression, not trying to kill our way. When we do that we become the oppressors. You so quickly cast off anything that doesn't follow your way of thought, but where do I base my beliefs? firmly in the teachings of Jesus.

You have not once shown that I have taken something Jesus said out of context. You have not once shown how it can mean something different. Nor have you shown that the early church believed anything other than what I have stated. So basically, you are just saying, well I don't like that part of what Jesus says, because I believe something different.

rev

The Rev said...

btw, even godly men can be wrong, as history has shown us again, and again and again

rev

Jeepman said...

(btw, even godly men can be wrong)

Well, we definitely agree on something!!

(God however, has shown us a more excelent way.)

You are absolutely right here Rev, and I never refuted this part of the bible. But if you try to put God in a box by identifying him with a couple of verses, then you have taken Him out of context. God is MUCH BIGGER than the little boxes we pea brained humans try to fit Him into!

For someone who says he doesn't like violence, you seem to want to fight instead of weighing all the evidence and looking at it objectively.

I laid out the evidence very clearly with biblical references. My job here is done Rev. My hope is that you are not led astray by false teachings or stir up any more dissension against fellow believers. God will hold you accountable for that.

God bless.

The Rev said...

I did the same, I showed you legitimate understandings of things, that actually explain why we are supposed to do what Jesus said. The problem comes with your view of the bible, and how to interpret it.

The bible is not divine. Jesus is divine. Jesus is said to be the author and finisher, or our faith. So I am not guilty of fighting for a position. I am guilty of calling people to follow the way, the truth and the life. To follow Jesus. To follow the way of love.

You may believe your job is done, but you are just patting yourself on the back and leaving satisfied, but you have never even considered what I said, nor explained how anything you can say can get around the very clear teaching of Jesus.

How about finishing this sentence, "when Jesus said not to return evil for evil, but good for evil, it really means... because..."

Or this one, "when Jesus says we are to love our enemies, we are still allowed to bomb and kill them because..."

you have used a interpretation of scripture that lifts the bible above Jesus himself, and then patted yourself on the back for defending the faith.

Did God hold Paul accountable for stirring up trouble when he called out Peter for being a jerk to the gentiles? Judgment starts in the church, and we are called to speak the truth in love. Chuck announced to all the world that we should bomb people, many of them innocents, and I am the bad guy for pointing out that this isn't loving, or just? I think you are more biased than you know.

rev

Jeepman said...

(The bible is not divine. Jesus is divine)

John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

(How about finishing this sentence, "when Jesus said not to return evil for evil, but good for evil, it really means... because...")

Now let me post what I've already said about this.

(God however, has shown us a more excelent way.)
(You are absolutely right here Rev, and I never refuted this part of the bible)

(Or this one, "when Jesus says we are to love our enemies, we are still allowed to bomb and kill them because...")

Again, you missed what I wrote about this.

( but war is always the result of sin (Romans 3:10-18). Obviously God is not against all war. Jesus is always in perfect agreement with the Father (John 10:30), so we cannot argue that war was only God’s will in the Old Testament. God does not change (Malachi 3:6; James 1:17).

Also Rev, you mistakingly accuse me of patting myself on the back when what I said actually refers back to what Paul said in Acts.

Acts 20:27 - For I have not hesitated to proclaim to you the whole will of God.

Let me also post what the bible says about dissension.

Pro 6:16,19 - There are six things the Lord hates, seven that are detestable to Him.
A man who stirs up dissension among brothers.

Pro 10:12 - Hatred stirs up dissension but love covers all wrongs.

Pro 16:28 - A perverse man stirs up dissension, and a gossip separates close friends.

Pro 29:22 - An angry man stirs up dissension, and a hot tempered one commits many sins.

As a fellow believer Rev, you should already know that this was not the way to handle the situation. Whether Chuck was right or wrong, you should have gone to him and asked him to explain himself. This is what the bible calls us to do. You could have emailed him, you could have called into the show, and if you didn't get on the show itself, there are people there that answer the phones who would have passed your question or concern along.

If then, he refused to speak to you or answer your question, you should have gone to him with another fellow believer.

If he still refused to answer, then maybe you could have done this. But I know Chuck, and I know he would have been more than eager to speak with you if there was a problem or concern. That's just the way he is. But you didn't give him the chance. Thats a big problem Rev.

I believe you owe Chuck a public apology, whether you think he's right or wrong, for not going to him in private first and letting him speak for himself.

I can see clearly Rev, that you have a love for God and for following His word! I hope and pray that you continue in that, and that God pours out His Holy Spirit on you, to show you His perfect will and perfect way! I really believe that you could be very effective in bringing the word of God to others.

Please pray about what I have said and ask for God's perfect wisdom in these discussions.

God bless.

The Rev said...

Jeep,

thanks that was a very thoughtful and nice response. Please understand that I know you desire to follow Jesus as well, which is why I am trying to speak what I believe to be the truth of Jesus into a situation that has been co-opted by a subverted post constantinian church.

I took a very long time before posting this initial thread. I made the decision to do so for these reasons:

Chuck's message was sent out onto radio waves that were heard by millions of people all over the world, and I believe it is false doctrine. In the same way that I have heard him and other Calvary Chapel pastors renounce other teachers, and doctrines, I find it highly hypocritical if I was to be told not to do the same thing.

The teaching Chuck was giving is perceived to be the norm of Christian thought and theology, when in fact it is not. Nor is it the more historical truth of the church, the fact is that for the first three hundred years the church was mostly pacifist. The world, and the church need to know there is an alternative, personal exortation would not do that.

Thirdly, I believe that like John the bapatist, or Paul, or Westley, or even Chuck himself, it is important to take a stand for what we believe to be the truth of the bible, and of the cross.

So there are times when dissent must be voiced. Jesus showed us that in his examples in the temple, in the plains, and all through his ministry, calling people out on their errors. He never once however is violent towards people, ever.

So, I judging my own heart, have decided to speak against the false teaching of one of my brothers, all the while judging myself, and praying for Him. I feel I am justified before God.

As to your continued accusation about the whole counsel of God, I have shown you that the whole counsel of God is revealed in Jesus. Hebrews says that Jesus is the exact representation of God's being. Jesus says that He Himself is the way, the truth and the life. Jesus says that the scriptures are only perfected through Him.

Please follow me. Jesus says that the law says not to murder, but that the law is incomplete, because if you are angry with your brother it is a sin, and if you call someone a fool you are guilty enough for the hell fire. Jesus said this, that the law was not enough. Jesus give the perfection of the law, which is, "therefore, when you come to the altar, and remember that you have a problem with your brother, go and be reconciled with your brother first, then do your worship" He meant for us to actually do this.

So, just like we eat ham sandwiches now, and worship on Sunday, we also understand that the old ideas have changed. Jesus showed us the way of the peacemaker, the way of the meek.

Isn't it funny that a hindu, reads these words of Jesus, and practices them without caveat and winds up winning the freedom of his entire nation without a bullet being fired. That man says, "the entire world knows Jesus was non violent... except the Christians"

Jesus bids us come and follow. The way of the cross says, I will die for you, but I will not kill for you.

rev

Anonymous said...

Wow, I just spent over an hr reading all the posts. Not sure how I ended up here. I was looking for a book on google and here I am.

I am a huge of fan of Chuck as I have been a part the Calvary Chapel church for most of my adult life. With that being said, I must say that there is no 'one' perfect church. And you can't just look to the man (ie the pastor). As my pastor and a longtime friend always say, don't just take my word for it, but search it for your self.

I am not going to take sides here, as I see valid points taken on both sides.

But as you've said, it is your blog. But I am not going tear down a great man of God and all his doing, and have done for the Lord based on one (wrong) thing he's done. To be quite honest here, I can only wish that I am only an ounce of what that man is and what he has done for the Kingdom. I put him right up there with guys like Billy Graham. Is Mr Graham perfect, not by a long shot. Has he made mistakes in representing God, I sure he has. Do I condemn him for his teaching based on one mistake (if its actually constitute as one), of course not.

I don't want to sounds bias here but I do tend to agree with Jeepman on the 'dissension' thing.

Now I'm sure you will post something to oppose what I've said. But hey, its your blog so you can do whatever you want with it. Just thought I put in my two cents worth. Just remember that we should try to build up the church instead of tearing it down.

In His name,

Jack

The Rev said...

Jack,

if someone does something that is wrong, does it publicly, justifies it, and others agree do you have any obligation to speak up? Is it tearing down the church to call it to truth and righteousness?

I have heard Chuck "correct" heretical teachers. Have you heard him speak of the faith movement? Or lets go a bit further, have you heard him speak about denominations that allow homosexuality? Is it wrong for him to divide? Is he tearing down the church?

Is it possibly because I am an unknown, house church planter, that spends his time hanging out with homeless folk instead of writing books and hosting a radio show that means I am not allowed to speak against what I see is a clearly unChristlike teaching?

rev

Anonymous said...

I have been a Christian for about 40 yrs. now. I used to go to Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa in the early days. I am very appreciative that God gave me that wonderful opportunity for building my faith on His Word and the teachings Chuck Smith did every Sunday night. You people who are waging war against this super Christian father are immature. Grow up in the faith. So what if he said he would fight against the evil Islamic fascists! I would too. Israel has a right to defend itself just like any other country. Did you all want us to go and get the terrorists that did the 911 tragedy? And the day will come that you may feel the same if you knew that Islam is coming to a town near you one day very soon. It is the anti Christ's religion. They want to chop off our heads!How dare you pick on Chuck Smith! I exhort you all for saying such things about him and gossipping. Israel,the center of the world and timetable of the coming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ! To the Jew first remember? We are grafted into the body of Christ, through Jesus' blood. We are adopted sons. The Judas are the first called. Be careful what you say about Israel.
I do not believe in the Rick Warren crap teachings. There is always and element of truth in every lie just about. But, to back bite and have web pages against Pastor Chuck Smith really gets me angry. You ought to live in No. California. It's so spiritually dry here. The chuches are boring and you have to always be up on your guard or else you will be deceived. Praise God Chuch Smith teaches scripture. So wonderful.You all need to take a good look at the book of Hebrews. Think about Israel, and pray for the peace of Jerusalem. And you pompous goofs we are to love our enemies. So, when you are perfect in love which you testify by your words that you are not then you can slam another man for his feeings regarding Israel.Read prophecy. Hey, try reading Walid Shoebats books. I suggest you take the log out of your own eyes before you try and take the splinter out of someone elses. Sound familiar! May Jesus bless you all with His Truth!

Anonymous said...

First off, there's no date reference on your blog so it's difficult to try to reference what anyone says.

Anyway, to the last no name Anonymous post after Rev's reply to Jack's post....well said to the Anonymous person, I couldn't have said it any better.

I too have spent many of my years (20+) involved in Calvary Chapel ministries in various parts of the country. I am sure Pastor Chuck is not a a perfect person. I am sure he has his faults just like anyone else (not to excuse what he said; right or wrong). I think you are blowing this thing way out of proportion here. It's one thing to mention something about what you dislike or disagree with about a brother in the Lord, and it's another thing to beat it to death. You are discrediting a faithful brother's 40+ yrs of ministry based on one account. Have you not done anything worst? Or better yet, have you done anything better?

I believe we all have to answer for what we've done some day. Like the Anonymous person says, I would be more concern about taking the plank out of my own eyes instead of trying to take the speck out of my brother's eyes.

Jack

Ps - Troy - I don't know what 'bible' you're reading out of when you can call a brother in the Lord a 'peckerhead'. A man whom has won hundreds, perhaps thousands of souls for the kingdom of our Lord. Would you call Billy Graham a peckerhear also? I would think not, and I'm sure he's got his faults. I would ask of you, what have you done for the kingdom of God?!

The Rev said...

Ok, first off, I am not blowing it out of proportion, I mentioned it on my blog, I did not beat it to death I just answered my critics.

Secondly, I was angry because I admire Chuck Smith, you think I would care in the least what some idiot like Benny Hinn or Rev Phelps said?

Thirdly, when someone is representing the Christian faith, in public, and says something very contrary to the teachings of Christ, are you saying you should sit there and say nothing? Let me tell you that is not what Calvary Chapel does. I have seen them from the pulpit criticize countless people, and organizations, that would say the same kinds of things you said in defense of Chuck.

And lastly...

The last shall be first and the first last. Do you really think it is appropriate to compare pedigrees? I have followed Jesus as hard as I can for 25 years, have started a number of churches, lead many people to faith, fed homeless people, cared for mentally ill people blah blah blah. That doesn't make me any better or worse than anyone else. I am just God's child struggling to follow him.

rev

Al said...

It sounds to me as though NOT many of you folks have read the Words in scripture of how God will take care of His people. What Chuck said could be debated, but the Word of God remains weather we like it or not. He will NOT allow anything to happen to His people. He may chastise them, but He will NOT allow anyone or anything to destroy them. As crude as it may sound. This is the only thing that will cause the opposition to pay attention to Isreal's seriousness, and their right to exist. It has been demonstrated over and over again, If the Israelis give up land for peace, they will only pursuit more simply because they actually want it all.

David said...

Israel is a tiny nation positioned in the middle of other nations that are set upon the total destruction and annihilation of Israel.

God brought Israel back in 1948 and God will defend Israel in anyway He (God) chooses whether it is through the Israeli Army or its friendly allies or other. Israel has every right to defend itself when it is being attacked by any foreign or domestic enemy or threat.

Pastor Chucks military strategy will seem excessively mild in the last days when Israel is completely surrounded by its enemies and God Eliminates them all.

Anonymous said...

As Christians we should be backing God's chosen people not turning our backs as we have done and our doing as a nation.I wonder if King David would have loaded his sling shot with some new age emerging pea gravel.Not a chance he loaded it with the rock-rock of ages.He loved Gods chosen people and had no fear of showing it.King Saul would not fight.There is a lot of saul in a whole lot of christians.Chuck Smith gets a purple heart for this one for being wounded by his own christian soilders.I would take one tough motivated unbeliever into battle than ten whimpie well armed christians that have no bible doctrin.Never quit Chuck!

The Rev said...

First of all, I think you all are forgetting that I was angry with chuck because I admired him so much. If it was Benny Hinn I would not have cared one bit, because lets face it, he is an idiot.

Secondly, it takes much more confidence in God to walk into battle with nothing, than with a weapon. If you knew me, you would never accuse me of cowardice, I am a former professional cage fighter, I was a bullfighter in my youth, and I repo'd cars, I am literally scared of nothing.

Thirdly, David also banged another man's wife and then had him killed, should we emulate that? Jesus is the fulfilment of the scriptures, the perfection of what was lacking. Jesus is the author and the finisher of our faith, the way the truth the life, the beginning and end, the exact representation of God. It is Christ who calls us to follow Him, not David, or Paul. Jesus is God in flesh, and He said "turn the other cheek, do not return evil for evil but good for evil, do not resist violently an evil man, blessed are the peacemakers, and put away your sword" Christ walked the way of non violence, as did all of his disciples, and all of theirs. Perhaps it is you who should do some research. The Christian church was universally pacifist at least until 150 and mostly pacifist until 300 ad

rev

Anonymous said...

Luke 22:36

He said to them, "But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one. (ESV)

Jesus tells his disciples to sell their cloak and buy a sword. He knew they would need to defend themselves. Or at least cause a second thought in an enemies mind, knowing that they could fight back if they had to.

Pastor Chuck Smith is human, just like you and I. He may have expressed himself out of his flesh. But either way, if I was in a situation where my family was in danger of being hurt or killed, I would not stand by and let it happen. I think that would be absolutely worse than fighting back. I think it may be easy for us to give our opinions on this, but we cannot even begin to think that we know better or point our fingers at so and so, and explain why they are wrong. We are all rotten to the core, whether you want to admit it or not, as soon as we point our finger.....we have a hundred more pointing right back at us.

I notice you (The Rev) seem to use curse words here and there, I don't understand this. You are a christian, defending the scripture, yet you are using filthy language? It may not seem a big deal to you, but I can assure you that is a stumbling block among many young in the faith. In the book of James he speaks about his:

"but no human being can tame the tongue. It is a restless evil, full of deadly poison. With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse people who are made in the likeness of God. From the same mouth come blessing and cursing. My brothers, these things ought not to be so. Does a spring pour forth from the same opening both fresh and salt water? Can a fig tree, my brothers, bear olives, or a grapevine produce figs? Neither can a salt pond yield fresh water. (James 3:8-12 ESV)

But once again, I cannot sit here and point my finger at you, because I have a sin nature to.

I am just thankful that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for our sins, that we may have eternal life.

How long will this thread "Gossip" about another man's so called sin? Is this glorifying our Lord in any way? Seems for the most part, we all know who Chuck is and what he stands for.

On another note, I have heard convincing arguments on both sides of the Jesus and War arguments. A good solid study of this subject can be found on John Macarthur's website in his sermons. www.gty.org Let the the Lord speak for himself on this issue.

The Rev said...

so is it gossip when calvary chapel preachers call others cults? Or false teachers? Because they do it quite regularly, in fact you just said that I was a sinner, are you gossiping? Was Paul gossiping when he told people that he opposed Peter?

The scripture you quoted, in context, means that we are to expect people to come against us. It is not a command to buy a sword. If you do a little research you will see that the church uniformly denounce any violence, including self defense, and defense of ones own family until around 150 ad, and even then the majority was still pacifist until Constantine made the church the state church. And then Augustine basically copied Cicero (a pagan) in providing the just war theory.

As to your accusations about my language, can you tell me how saying ass, or shit makes young people stumble? I have been a youth pastor and leader, and currently pastor young people and I have not seen one person "lost" because of "naughty" words. In addition, a little research and you will find that Paul calls us not to use sexual language, Paul also tells the church that the Judaizers should have their penis' cut off. He also calls uses the word that meant menstrual rags, and the word that meant a waste pit for human feces.

In addition, language is cultural. If you said fag sixty years ago, or in England today, most people think you are talking about a cigarette. To my mother crap is a bad word. To some people saying Geez is taking the Lords name in vain. In other places if you say, "man that sucks" you are cursing.

In the world I live in, saying doo doo doesn't make you seem righteous, it makes you seem like a ned flanders.

Now let me ask you some questions: Did Jesus "forget" to wash his hands in front of the pharisees?
Did Jesus forget to tell his disciples not to pick grains from the field?
Did Jesus simply not understand that touching a leper would make him unclean according to the law?

I say no. When we are reaching out to people, we must be as Paul, being all things to all men so that some might be saved. We must speak in their own language, and come down to their level. You will notice that I do not use sexual language, I do not use words that are demeaning to peoples imago dei. I speak clearly, in the vernacular of the day, and if that pisses off the pharisees, well that is their problem not mine.

If you want to read something that is actually a historical insight into the church and its stance on violence I would suggest Mere Discipleship by Lee Camp, as much better than the words of someone who denies the gifts of the Holy Spirit

rev

Anonymous said...

I did not quote Paul, I quoted James and he is not alluding to sexual language specifically, read the context.

AS far as Calvary Chapel calling out cults and all that, I agree and its a good thing they do that. But I have never heard Calvary Chapel call someone that believes the essential doctrines of the christian faith, as a cult. But when I say Gossip, I mean that because thats what this thread is doing, you are not calling out someone who is following or leading a cult, you are criticizing someone who is a genuine christian and may have slipped up.

As far as the idea of church history being passive and all that.....the church was corrupt in Paul's day and has been ever since, I don't look at church history my friend, I look at God's word. What does he say about it. Is the God of the old testament the same as the new? I believe that scripture is clear, that there is a Just way to defend one's self and one's family or nation if being attacked by evil. I don't think we should instigate violence, or be aggressive in any way, but how could one justify allowing his wife and children to be brutally murdered, and just stand by and watch? That seems to be absolutely absurd!

As far as the language goes, I think that using the word "Banged" in a sexual sense is filthy. We are not to be like this world, if we walk around talking like the sinner we are trying to witness to, he isn't going to see any reason to change, he will assume that you live the same way he does and if that's the case, why would he even bother coming to Christ? After all there would seem to be no difference initially.

All things are lawful, but not all things are expedient. If you are going to witness to a porn star, are you going to get down to his level and speak like him? Is this being all things to all people?

Sure that doesn't happen very often, but someone needs to speak to them about Christ. I think there a line needs to be drawn on how much one molds himself to the world, just so they can reach them. In my life it has made an amazing impact by keeping my language different from the common filth that is used among the lost. After some time, they notice that there is something different about me that they want, and believe it or not, they almost always notice that I never curse. It's like drinking alcohol, I'm not going to drink just to relate to my buddy who likes to go to bars, instead I don't drink when I am with him, but love him and share with him the love of Christ, eventually he notices.

We are to be set apart from this world, not molded to it. What if you didn't use that language? Do you think it would effect your witnessing with unbelievers?

Even the word Hell, do you really think we ought to use this so loosely? Speaking of a "real" place where the lost will be eternally damned....I personally think we should be careful, I know the Lord has laid it on my heart, that I shouldn't loosely spit this word around, because it breaks the heart of God that millions upon millions will be damned there. I feel we ought to use this word in its true context and purpose, not to use it casually.

Finally, I don't want to argue about this any longer, I do believe that you are a genuine christian and I am willing to agree to disagree on these non-essentials. You are my brother in Christ and I have given you my 2 cents on this issue. I pray that the Lord uses you to reach the lost and that He continues to bring you closer to Him. It was through the Lord using Chuck Smith that I came out of a legalistic church that I felt like I had to get saved every time I sinned. It was a church who put more emphasis on feelings and emotions rather than the Word of God. I now go to a Calvary Chapel where I live and I am being fed like never before!

Keep on preaching Chuck!

The Rev said...

Yes, calvary chapel has called out people that believe the essentials. Like the Faith movement, or the emerging church movement. I have heard it from their own lips. I have stated that I was angry with a leader in the church who said something that was unscriptural, just like Paul did.

The early church wrote the scriptures. Paul, Peter, Matthew, John, they were all early church people. Don't you trust their disciples? Don't you trust their interpretation of scripture? The ones that actually walked with Jesus? I am guessing the guys who actually walked along side of him knew better what he said than people two thousand years later.

But I am letting the scriptures speak. Love your enemies. Do not return evil for evil but good for evil. Be merciful. Blessed are the peacemakers. I could go on and on.

As far as language, I know you didn't quote Paul, but Paul actually gets into it much deeper than James. James is talking about gossip, not a set of words that are on the naughty list.

And yes, I have ministered to actual porn stars. You know what they say? "Man, I am glad I can just talk to you. You don't make me feel like I am being lectured, or that I am not good enough to talk to you" But do you know what they also say? "Man if more Christians actually did the things you do, the world would be a better place." You see, I don't need to use weird language to show the glory of God's kingdom, I do that by feeding the hungry, taking in the homeless, hanging out with the outcasts and sinners, and many other things.

Isn't it interesting that the pharisees were always finding fault with Jesus and these little actions, but neglected to notice he fed the hungry, healed the sick, had parties with traitors and sinners, loved the prostitutes.

I love Chuck Smith, and I love the church, that doesn't mean I won't speak up when I feel the need. In fact, you did the same thing didn't you? Why is it ok for you to call me out, but not me to call out Chuck. I might make a few peoples ears bleed, But if Chucks words were followed thousands of people, including innocent women and children would die.

And one more thing, if you want to follow just war theory, which I think is compromise, you still would have to condemn Chucks comments. Rules that would have been broken by following CHucks advice would be innocents being killed as collateral damage, the refusal to look for any possible alternative, and the keeping of hostilities to the lowest possible level.

rev

Patmos Pete said...

Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

news4themasses said...

Good Post! You're not the only one trying to expose the error within Calvary Chapel (specifically) the leaven allowed in by and sometimes propagated by Chuck Smith himself. Check out my blog..
http://news4themasses.wordpress.com

Sonja said...

Chuck Smith declares a truth but operates in a lie. Just like his pals Greg Laurie, Billy Graham, Rick Warren and the list goes on.False Preachers, birds of a feather flock together these ministers of deception have to do what they are told and follow the guidelines of their puppet masters or else the rug will be snatched from under their feet. You cannot declare a truth and operate in a lie. Rock music has no more business up in the church just as hip hop and especially for the very reason they bring it up in there...to reach the youth?(holy rock, holy hip hop) We are to teach the youth according to the Bible not reach them, or reach anybody for that matter, thats God's job.

john jensen said...

news4themasses after reading a bit of your website, and after reading sonjas post, it am surprised that two fine pharisees like yourselves would even take a minute to look at my blog.

Compared to Calvary Chapel you would think I am the anti Christ. I am an anarchist, a universal salvationist and a supporter of gay inclusion.

You may want stop agreeing with me in case my liberalness rubs off on you

rev

Anonymous said...

chuck smith is right, thats what needs to be done to make them understand. How else would they,, love chuck smith and everything he said is right. Throughout the bible many a battles were fought by stronger armies in the name of jesus, why should we not use what we have to teach them we are strong against there backward beliefs.

Anonymous said...

wasn't the comment stated as: "if I was in charge in Israel..."? Which would mean he was acting as the government, which would have been both ordained by God, and given the sword and charged to use it for the protection of the people of his Nation. We may feel nice and comfortable in our own holiness and pacifism, as we condemn all forms of violence; but it is not very loving to do nothing to stop your neighbors & friends from being murdered, raped & mutilated. Remember the good Samaritan?

john jensen said...

The story of the good Samaritan explains how the hated heretical enemy is actually quite often living out love and mercy, when the supposed righteous people are not. Can't really see how any serious reading of scripture can see otherwise.

As to pacifism, who said do nothing? But if you actually look into the situation, Israel antagonizes the Palestinians, as much as they are antagonized. If they would do as Jesus commanded, and returned good for evil, rather than evil for evil perhaps it would stop. Or perhaps if they did what Jesus said and prayed for those that abused them. Or maybe if they acted like Jesus did and were willing to give their lives for their friends, but not take lives for their friends, they would actually be what they were called to be, a light unto the nations.

And perhaps Chuck Smith, as a follower of Jesus, would be expected to do the same. But of course, Chuck Smith has bought into the cult of nationalism, and zionism, rather than following the risen Christ. He should be ashamed of himself.

rev

Anyhony Carfagno said...

I'm actually going to see Chuck tonight

And your Letter (received by accident ... {or divine providence} Is going to make me give his this "Message I wrote ...

Is “Modern day” Israel the “Fig tree or the: “False Jews” of Daniel 11:14 & 17 & Revelation 2:9 & 3:9?

View it here:
http://web.me.com/yocuzwaasup/Daniel_11_32/DANIEL_Blog/Entries/2011/8/25_Is_“Modern_day”_Israel_the_“Fig_tree_or_the__“False_Jews”_of_Revelation_2_%26_3.html

God Bless
Anthony

James said...

I attended Calvary from back in the 70's in the old circus tents. Pastor Chuck is a very fine and sincere pastor but he is not perfect because there is only one who is perfect. Pastor Chuck is a very beloved pastor and I do not believe any of us have the right to judge him. God will be our judge, not any of us and I will stand up for pastor Chuck until the day I die. James

Steve in VA said...

The thing I like most of these posts is that I see God in them, just as I do in Chuck. I see that you see God in Chuck and do not idolize the man or make him your authority. That is a beautiful thing to me. "But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us." 2 Cor 4:7




Anonymous said...

Rev , Why are you naming Calvary Chapel... Doesn't Lord always have a remnant. ..

Anonymous said...

Rev.. why don't you believe and pray? ?

Anonymous said...

Rev...I am a new believer reading about humility. ...where is yours ?

Anonymous said...

Still won't let go of your self...Repent !!!!

john jensen said...

so, you are a new believer reading about humility yet you feel just fine calling out an elder in the church for over 30 years? Isn't that what I did? Perhaps you realize that when something is done publicly in the name of Christ then we as a church have the obligation to speak up against the error. Which I did... many years ago.

So my question to you is... how is it proper, for a Christian man to advocate the murder of thousands of men, women and children, when Christ calls us to love our enemies, and do good to those who try to hurt us? Rather than get in a tissy over my audacity and lack of humility, why don't you ask yourself if I am right.

rev