tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9706995.post8422112148746629079..comments2023-09-09T08:53:09.616-07:00Comments on the rev: A letter to Pastor Markjohn jensenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01152784582419753697noreply@blogger.comBlogger112125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9706995.post-7549612696692142632011-09-06T14:25:51.504-07:002011-09-06T14:25:51.504-07:00"I really hope you tried to contact Mark befo..."I really hope you tried to contact Mark before you decided to go slandering him..."<br /><br />By definition, slander is not "slander" if the statement is true. The truth is always a sure defense against an accusation of slander. <br /><br />More: <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/magazine/11punk-t.html?pagewanted=4" rel="nofollow">The New York Times - "Who Would Jesus Smack Down?"</a><br />/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9706995.post-73391637151242469932011-08-29T15:41:51.919-07:002011-08-29T15:41:51.919-07:00hey rev,
my name is matt-- i seem to remember a gu...hey rev,<br />my name is matt-- i seem to remember a guy who used "therev" handle on a jj chat forum many years ago. i recall this guy was well-read in aquinas, and i think you are that guy! how awesome that i have e-bumped into you again. <br /><br />anyways, somebody emailed this post to me, so i wanted to share an article i wrote this past summer:<br />http://theotherjournal.com/2011/06/28/the-confessions-of-a-cage-fighter-masculinity-misogyny-and-the-fear-of-losing-control/<br /><br />love to see binding the strong man on your book list. much peace to you brother.<br /><br />-mattMatthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14176936952693835179noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9706995.post-18362788676744260722011-07-25T17:25:30.472-07:002011-07-25T17:25:30.472-07:00Great post Rev! Been enjoying the banter in the co...Great post Rev! Been enjoying the banter in the comments. How's the book on leadership going?Nealhttp://www.handtotheplough.com.aunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9706995.post-14794416850069620422011-07-23T05:36:31.863-07:002011-07-23T05:36:31.863-07:00I knew a pastor of a small church in rural Missour...I knew a pastor of a small church in rural Missouri who felt led by God to "grow out his hair." He was at the right age for a mid-life crisis sort of thing, so I think everyone kind of thought that's what it was.<br /><br />Long hair on men has not always been considered the manliest of traits.<br /><br />Anyway, after about a year or so, when his hair was flowing down his back, an Indian (as in Native American) mom and her 2 sons drove up to his church. They asked who the pastor was b/c they needed to talk w/him. He told them he was the pastor.<br /><br />The kids were excited because he had long hair, just like them. <br /><br />Turns out they had been kicked out of a few churches in the area and were really looking for a good church to go to. So, of course, they were able to attend his.<br /><br />I thought that was a cool story.<br /><br />Bam.Caryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02895686810468013925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9706995.post-62857787795964376972011-07-21T12:36:02.870-07:002011-07-21T12:36:02.870-07:00NiceNicejohn jensenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01152784582419753697noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9706995.post-12326407626793651002011-07-21T12:02:24.101-07:002011-07-21T12:02:24.101-07:00"The internet has given everyone a voice, men..."The internet has given everyone a voice, men like you cant get anyone to listen to them in a face to face conversation so they seek the ignorant masses to follow a side of which they also do not care to understand."<br /><br />The internet has given Driscoll a platform to do the exact same thing only his media empire is powerful and far reaching. He's grabbing biblically ignorant young men and telling them that this is what Jesus is and how you should follow him. It seems the more powerful a man gets the more he will push the border and let his message just go on and on. Being a man's man is not the latest fashion or handling your bidness like a bro. Face up to the fact that Jesus didnt act like driscoll. Period. Your panties are in a bunch because your teacher gets punked and called out. As far a friendly fire, Jensen isnt about that. he's about exposing people to the concept of the real Jesus. Not that mark driscoll doesnt have good motives but empire building he is doing is the same as any other coorporate entity. You have a product to sell. Differentiate your product and find the market and SELL. If you are the spokesman, you live it. Me thinks that you are just pissed that a little blog post is unsettling to the theological structure you are building your life around. Check yourself. And dont forget the latest affliction T shirt and the faux paux hair do gel. There is a small commmunity of people who know what manliness is. Thats cool. There seems to be fewer who know what being christlike truly is. You dont find Jesus doing much but helping the poor, the sick and hanging out with people outside the church.simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12145301392411631022noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9706995.post-57348451340412472452011-07-21T09:57:29.835-07:002011-07-21T09:57:29.835-07:00The difference is I am right :)
The point is actu...The difference is I am right :)<br /><br />The point is actually that I am being judged by a scale that he is not being judged by. If fact, they are using my accusation of his injustice, to label me unjust. Not sure how that works. Did he say what he said? Yes Did his own elders condemn the action? Yes Did he issue a semi, half hearted not really apology? Yes So how come I am the bad guy?<br /><br />I didn't call him a spawn of Satan<br /><br />maybe that will be my next blog :)<br /><br />revjohn jensenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01152784582419753697noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9706995.post-88822059085037594652011-07-21T06:11:32.854-07:002011-07-21T06:11:32.854-07:00Yes, yes, and yes. I have also read you rip on Dri...Yes, yes, and yes. I have also read you rip on Driscoll. :) :) :) :) :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9706995.post-32240519750693873072011-07-20T21:17:40.269-07:002011-07-20T21:17:40.269-07:00Have you read 2 cor ? Do you get satire? Have you...Have you read 2 cor ? Do you get satire? Have you listened to Driscoll rip others?<br /><br />Revjohn jensenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01152784582419753697noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9706995.post-71941442794818327632011-07-20T21:12:44.548-07:002011-07-20T21:12:44.548-07:00You assert your "manliness" way more tha...You assert your "manliness" way more than Driscoll ever has. Chill, dude. Stop tearing down what other people have going on in their ministry. Anyone can sit around and blog about what other people need to fix in their lives. It is easy... that's why kids do it. And, to everyone, stop swearing to show how cool and hip you are. It makes you look silly, especially once we see a self-proclaimed "Pastor______" screen name.BobBnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9706995.post-10052427678896806312011-07-19T18:17:49.551-07:002011-07-19T18:17:49.551-07:00fascinating...fascinating...kyle stowellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17803469721795030796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9706995.post-56765273328105319292011-07-16T14:21:45.591-07:002011-07-16T14:21:45.591-07:00It looks like you just bullied Mark by blogging yo...It looks like you just bullied Mark by blogging your credentials, and than saying your flesh wants to beat him up. By saying that you wouldn't really do that, but that your flesh wants to is really no different than what Mark did. He really wouldn't want to hurt an effeminate male worship leader, but he made the flippant comment on facebook and probably did. All the blogs and hate towards Mark are not helping anything. He was wrong, he admitted it and I am sure in his flesh he will act stupid again. Unfortunately for him he has thousands of "fans" on facebook who get to tell him what he should and should not do, but we are all allowed to make the same kind of mistakes in our slow sanctification (often really slow sanctification process), and people are quick to forgive.Jasonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9706995.post-41823916936160003502011-07-16T11:33:33.301-07:002011-07-16T11:33:33.301-07:00only if there is a poster of it :)
I may have exa...only if there is a poster of it :)<br /><br />I may have exaggerated a bit around 17,000 so far, more than the rest of my blog its entire five year lifejohn jensenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01152784582419753697noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9706995.post-12584739940151593802011-07-16T10:06:56.912-07:002011-07-16T10:06:56.912-07:00I'd let you baptize me into the family anytime...I'd let you baptize me into the family anytime you want! 1mil hits?? Ha!lukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02399024390733525886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9706995.post-28487393133852336962011-07-16T09:14:37.926-07:002011-07-16T09:14:37.926-07:00Rev, I think I love you. Strength poured out in ge...Rev, I think I love you. Strength poured out in gentle service is so much more masculine than all that macho BS. But you've led me into the temptation of wanting to see MD's ass kicked...off to repent.beakerjnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9706995.post-51573116924133723062011-07-16T06:45:50.069-07:002011-07-16T06:45:50.069-07:00What Mark hasn't learnt yet is that qualities ...What Mark hasn't learnt yet is that qualities like gentleness, patience, love and peacemaking are very attractive qualities in men to godly women who are seeking a godly husband.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9706995.post-85357169318354540252011-07-16T06:21:31.206-07:002011-07-16T06:21:31.206-07:00Joe, did you read my other post? Does Mark "...Joe, did you read my other post? Does Mark "assume" a posture of superiority when he makes fun of others? When he says others are hell bound for not following his belief system? When he is screaming that his own child knows a Jewish scholar has nothing to offer a Christian on the understanding of the Old Testament? Perhaps in your defense of Mark you are holding the powerful to a scale that is weighted in his favor.<br /><br />For the record, I have no intention of stepping in a cage with Mark and said so. <br /><br />revjohn jensenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01152784582419753697noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9706995.post-87603998995142041612011-07-16T04:30:11.885-07:002011-07-16T04:30:11.885-07:00Holy pickle shavings! This is the best blog I have...Holy pickle shavings! This is the best blog I have read in weeks! This could earn you a "Dove" and "ESPY" Award built into one! God TV or CBN could have their first "Christian Sponsored Sports Event" if you go to Seattle! The possibilities are endless! You win! Free raspberry jam under everyone's seats to take home! This article is brilliant, awesome, etc....bipolarbearshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17489624775812410633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9706995.post-67483706619244660852011-07-16T00:03:37.049-07:002011-07-16T00:03:37.049-07:00I'm curious how many of those immediately jump...I'm curious how many of those immediately jumping to the "you should go directly to Mark with this" critique offer the same suggestion to Mark when he repeatedly airs his opinions about others publicly, both broadly and specifically. I'm also curious if any of them have ever tried to get the time with Mark necessary to have such a discussion. I'm sure it's pretty easy to get to him.<br /><br />None of that is an effort to skate around biblical instruction. I think you (John) have sufficiently pointed out that there is indeed a biblical place for public rebuke.<br /><br />But I also think it's fair to note that men like Mark exist, thrive, and profit from an incredibly public platform that makes it utterly impossible for all those who witness their sin to address that sin personally. When you decide to accept the enormous personal benefits of fame and nearly unfettered freedom to distribute your opinions -- righteous and un- -- to thousands of people, you voluntarily move from a private realm into a public one. And not a public realm like the one Paul knew - public in a way that Paul never imagined. Mark cannot assume the public benefits of his virtuous actions in that realm and escape the public consequences of his sinful actions in that realm. <br /><br />Feel free to find fault in John's methods here, though the irony of those who criticize John's use of hyperbolic language while defending Mark is almost too much to bear. I suppose it's a reminder of just how difficult it is for all of us to shake our tendency to sympathize with those most like us while criticizing those who aren't - certainly no small part of the point John is making. <br /><br />From what he has shared, my theological perspective would vary from John's in notable ways, but I share his concern with Mark's ministry - a concern not primarily about paper doctrine, but lived theology. While I do admire that Mark has been willing to submit to authority and publicly repent in the past, his ongoing posture continues to consistently communicate arrogance, dismissiveness, and the obvious superiority of "men like him." The value in John's words here, I think, is the willingness of other "men like him" to call Mark to greater humility in this area. <br /><br />Mark's response to the backlash over this most recent incident is certainly far better than stubbornly defending his words. And yet I'd be far more encouraged by an acknowledgement that the words were not merely an unwise way to publicly air his perspective, but a public revelation of a privately sinful spirit - an acknowledgement we all could stand to make from time to time, no doubt.<br /><br />What John is advocating for here ultimately is not the downfall of Mark, but a better Mark - a better pastor - and not just one who is smarter about how he publicly reveals his private perspectives. I think John is openly "praying" for a Mark who changes through and through. The fallacy of the common objection to that prayer is in the assumption that such a transformation would require Mark to be less bold, less funny, less truthful. Hogwash. Mark is enormously gifted, and his personality is part of that gift. It need not be dulled to be conformed even more to the nature of Jesus. But it does need to be conformed to the nature of Jesus, even more than it has been so far. And it is not sin for brothers and sisters who witness Mark publicly use that personality to affect others in ways that are damaging and sinful to publicly say so - and to urge Mark to do what he publicly urges all of us to do: find more of Jesus, less of Mark.thadhttp://thadnorvell.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9706995.post-82876915524607399102011-07-15T23:19:13.515-07:002011-07-15T23:19:13.515-07:00John-
Hyperbole I get. I carefully & thoughtf...John-<br /><br />Hyperbole I get. I carefully & thoughtfully stated my concerns describing your actions "seemingly" as they appeared to me then asked you to judge your heart. I won't assume a posture of superiority as you have in your letter to Mark.<br /><br />FYI: Mark or his assistants will read your letter, but they won't join the mud pit or cage with you for that matter. Slandering others publicly won't lead to reconciliation with them, but it will get you a bunch of fans, so you have succeeded in that. CheersJoehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03376257074031413525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9706995.post-51548660486543902092011-07-15T20:15:40.761-07:002011-07-15T20:15:40.761-07:00Thanks John for your post. I took it in the spiri...Thanks John for your post. I took it in the spirit in which it was given. I do think the underlying issue here is 1) egalitarian vs. complimentarian view of gender roles, and 2) expectations of spiritual maturity in pastoral leadership. I will say that an apology that includes a plug for a future book seems to fall short of an apology to me. Perhaps (my cynical side suggests) it was all a ruse to promise the forthcoming book. Only God knows for sure.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9706995.post-30843351897909573982011-07-15T19:19:16.304-07:002011-07-15T19:19:16.304-07:00I don't think I really fit in the emerging chu...I don't think I really fit in the emerging church as much anymore. As they define themselves they become more liberal. I am more liberation theology, and would probably have more in common with the new monastics. I would have serious problems with Calvinistic theology. And I really believe that the ecclesiology that we see in the mega or meta church models are unbiblical, and create consumer Christians.<br /><br />But... my problem with Driscoll is his bullying, sexism, not his theology. To suggest otherwise is speculation, I am being pretty honest. Make sure and read my follow up.<br /><br />revjohn jensenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01152784582419753697noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9706995.post-9983135366087385962011-07-15T19:08:18.886-07:002011-07-15T19:08:18.886-07:00This is classic Emerging Church vs. New Calvinist/...This is classic Emerging Church vs. New Calvinist/Reformed banter. I think it's more than just his Manly Macho ways that bother you. I don't have to agree with Driscoll on everything nor would I agree on everything with you. I will tell you that it's refreshing from what I see that Driscoll seems to apologize when he's said some things over the years (one of which is the same foul mouth that I could care less about but others get offended). This is much different than many pastors I grew up with who seemed so perfect all the time when you know they aren't. You also mentioned difference in his Theology? I hate to speculate but I'm curious....do tell?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9706995.post-33589356991693485552011-07-15T16:59:44.557-07:002011-07-15T16:59:44.557-07:00Bro, thanks so much for posting this.
I am a fan ...Bro, thanks so much for posting this.<br /><br />I am a fan of Mark. That doesn't come w/ Rose-coloured glasses though. I appreciate the fact that he can talk candidly from such a public position. I also appreciate the fact that he is incredibly gifted. Typically though, people that have glaring gifts...have glaring weaknesses.<br /><br />I say all that because...the 'Manhood Gospel' just leaves young men- who have had little training to 'become a man', and little support in that realm- pissed off, hurt, discouraged, unloved, and perhaps even uncertain if God really cares. I am climbing out of that boat.<br /><br />Real talk, thanks, Rev. Keep brining it...Timothy Bitzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09627129466605423051noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9706995.post-33799597383979720252011-07-15T15:37:17.522-07:002011-07-15T15:37:17.522-07:00Anyone defending Mark Driscoll needs to know if he...Anyone defending Mark Driscoll needs to know if he is so much more than what he posts on youtube, where is it? He's taken this man thing a little too far. I really think some cage time would humble him. He's on a rabbit trail that is gaining him alot of followers but he isnt really doing anyone any favors besides maybe trying to 'man up' the church.simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12145301392411631022noreply@blogger.com