tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9706995.post114073731746511047..comments2023-09-09T08:53:09.616-07:00Comments on the rev: FORGE (Mike Frost, Brian McClaren, John Smith etc.)john jensenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01152784582419753697noreply@blogger.comBlogger62125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9706995.post-1141772910017083812006-03-07T15:08:00.000-08:002006-03-07T15:08:00.000-08:00BTW - Happy International Women's Day everyone! ;)...BTW - Happy International Women's Day everyone! ;)Rebeccahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02456121582722875862noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9706995.post-1141769329693187512006-03-07T14:08:00.000-08:002006-03-07T14:08:00.000-08:00KLJ - yeah, ok, you're right. ;) I guess I was us...KLJ - yeah, ok, you're right. ;) I guess I was using the term "PC" as a dirty word for a moment there (the very thing I rail against!)<BR/><BR/>"I love the idea of being sensitive to the strengths of words"...I like the way you put that. If we're trying to be Jesus with skin on, then our words matter...Rebeccahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02456121582722875862noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9706995.post-1141756578185411992006-03-07T10:36:00.000-08:002006-03-07T10:36:00.000-08:00"Rev, this is not about being PC or otherwise. Thi..."Rev, this is not about being PC or otherwise. This is actually about caring about behaviour and language that can marginalise, exclude, and create stumbling blocks. If we recognise that we are doing something that does any of those things, then there's no excuse for not doing something about it."<BR/><BR/>To me this is the very definition of PC. You're not against PC your against stupidity. It's like Punk. You might hate what's being sold as punk on the radio and in the mall, but at it's core, punk is awesome and ya dig it, at least I do. And I love the idea of being sensitive to the strengths of words. I want to know how what is considered offensive to other people, it's allowed me to make more friends (and also to offend more people, when that's the goal.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9706995.post-1141693195239918362006-03-06T16:59:00.000-08:002006-03-06T16:59:00.000-08:00Rev, there's a lot of words used to describe God i...Rev, there's a lot of words used to describe God in the Bible, 'Father' is but one of them. I'm not saying we can't call God 'Father' - I'm just saying that perhaps we should supplement this with other words as well. <BR/><BR/>I generally use the word "Creator God" in preference to "Mother God" (which I don't think I've ever used) or "Father God". It goes beyond gender, something which is helpful for blowing apart our human tendency to box God.<BR/><BR/>As for the issue of Jesus' gender...surely you're not suggesting that we can conclude anything from that? <BR/><BR/>What exactly would you define as the rad fem agenda? I don't believe that any rad fem would regard me as one! *laughs*Rebeccahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02456121582722875862noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9706995.post-1141690994519824792006-03-06T16:23:00.000-08:002006-03-06T16:23:00.000-08:00Perhaps you are reading a different bible than I a...Perhaps you are reading a different bible than I am Bec, but Jesus calls God his father over and over and over again. And Jesus was also male. So the idea that gender specific language is not theologically supportable is in my mind absolutely ridiculous. There are many that are offended by our assertion that Jesus is the only way to the Father, should we change that as well? I really don't think the radical feminist agenda is worth catering to, just as I think the current chest thumping promis keepers stuff is inline either. <BR/><BR/>Now I understand the pain and anquish someone may deal with when their father was a molester, or even just a vebally abusive person. And I understand why they struggle with an image of God as Father, but I can think of many reasons why just about everything will offend someone. <BR/><BR/>So I don't care if you pray to your heavenly mother, why do you care if I pray to my heavenly father? Sounds a bit sexist to me.<BR/><BR/>Oh and I thought I put your comment about americans in context, if not I apologize.<BR/><BR/>the revjohn jensenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01152784582419753697noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9706995.post-1141689693867835162006-03-06T16:01:00.000-08:002006-03-06T16:01:00.000-08:00"but Bec on another thread on another blog you adm..."but Bec on another thread on another blog you admitted that you are prejudiced against americans, that you try not to be but you just can't help it"<BR/><BR/>I'm glad you love me Rev. ;)<BR/><BR/>BUT - that's taken way out of context. I actually said that I recognised my prejudice, and that I was trying to do something about it. That comment on another thread was a confession. <BR/><BR/>Rev, this is not about being PC or otherwise. This is actually about caring about behaviour and language that can marginalise, exclude, and create stumbling blocks. If we recognise that we are doing something that does any of those things, then there's no excuse for not doing something about it.<BR/><BR/>I am not proud of my biases re: Americans, and I am working on that one, and I'm happy to say that I think I'm winning the battle. Similarly, once we recognise that gender specific language is theologically unsound, and might create hurt, then we should do something to remedy that.<BR/><BR/>I'm somewhat bemused that my suggestion that people make an effort to use gender-inclusive language caused such a stir. Jen's experience with Forge is not the same as mine - I get a lot out of attending Forge events and hanging out with you and other Forge people, but I also hear a lot of language that I *know* highly offends many women I know, who refuse to get involved in the emerging church movement as a result. Now, this language is (a) theologically unjustifiable, (b) hurting people, and (c) actually creating a barrier to people getting more involved in the emerging church movement. <BR/><BR/>I really do believe that there is a difference between private and public worship - both for sociological reasons, and for theological ones (ie tongues - presumably we can speak in tongues to our hearts content in private, but there should be translation in the public space. Similarly, the direction for women to be silent is clearly about orderly, respectful worship). <BR/><BR/>When we lead prayer - or any form of worship - in community, in public, our words must come from the heart but must also be thoughtful for other's experiences of that worship. There's no more excuse for consistently (nb I said consistently) referring to God as "Father" than there is for having an art exhibition that contains only images of Jesus or God as a blond haired, blue-eyed bloke. Both are public, both represent only a very, very small aspect of God's nature, and that nature is biased in a way that might negatively effect those whom are supposed to be able to engage in that public worship.Rebeccahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02456121582722875862noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9706995.post-1141688281640848682006-03-06T15:38:00.000-08:002006-03-06T15:38:00.000-08:00and I am sick of my lack of pc verbage used to mak...and I am sick of my lack of pc verbage used to make me seem like a knuckle dragging trogladyte<BR/><BR/>The pc crowd has caused this reaction by taking things too far. Sir Bob Geldorf in Attitude Chicken goes so far as to say, "the politically correct are the nazis of our time"<BR/><BR/>Now ofcourse that is artistic overstatement. But the suggestion from the pc people is that if I say retarded instead of mentally challenged, I do not care for these beautiful people. The suggestion is if I don't use a non gender specific name for God, or if I do not make equal feminine names when I pray in public that I am somehow not appreciating the contribution of the feminine in the God head, is social facism.<BR/><BR/>Should we show sensitivity yes, but Bec on another thread on another blog you admitted that you are prejudiced against americans, that you try not to be but you just can't help it. Well as an american, I could get offended, or I could say, well, "there are some good reasons to be, and I hope I am not contributing to that" And accept the fact that you treat me with respect, and love regardless of you racist soul. :)<BR/><BR/>I will point out, that you are on of very few Aussies that I have met that actually admit these feelings, and try to deal with them. I have heard some shocking statement that were followed by, but I love americans, or the equally endearing, "but not you, you're different"<BR/><BR/>love ya bec<BR/><BR/>the revjohn jensenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01152784582419753697noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9706995.post-1141686514362612352006-03-06T15:08:00.000-08:002006-03-06T15:08:00.000-08:00Thankyou KLJ.I'm sick of the term "PC" being used ...Thankyou KLJ.<BR/><BR/>I'm sick of the term "PC" being used to shut down debate. <BR/><BR/>Jen, I 110% agree with you that there can be a deep rooted intolerance in "the West" - I regularly get pretty angry about statements (express or implied) that the "solution" to "fundamentalism" is to "impose liberal democracy". <BR/><BR/>BUT - all societies have norms which, to a greater or lesser extent, it's not acceptable to break. Those statements which we would label "politically correct" are norms over which theres much competition. To suggest that "political correctness" (whatever that is - I think it's difficult to define) is a product of "the West" is like saying that "law" is a product of the West. Which is just plain silly - us white european women in the academy realised that there was law in all societies a long time ago. :)Rebeccahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02456121582722875862noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9706995.post-1141664212772232242006-03-06T08:56:00.000-08:002006-03-06T08:56:00.000-08:00"Most of my Muslim friends in Kenya are far more a..."Most of my Muslim friends in Kenya are far more angry at the West's concept of politcal correctness than they are of George Bush's policies who although is hated is also sort of admired as a man of strength."<BR/><BR/>I have trouble buying that. <BR/>The political correct movement is a good movement taken too far by some people. Anyone who really understood the main drive behind the movement would not push their beliefs on Muslim women but would rather try to respect their culture and individual choices. <BR/>I feel the backlash against the PC movement was the bigger problem. People being racist, sexist jerks and then saying, "Oh sorry, guess I wasn't 'Politically Correct?'" (and doing those annoying finger quote things).<BR/>But mainly I just can't hear Muslim women admiring Bush as a man of strength, no matter how hard I try to suspend disbelief.KLJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07518406972256513476noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9706995.post-1141541711915476992006-03-04T22:55:00.000-08:002006-03-04T22:55:00.000-08:00Jen Folds, thanks for a highly refreshing take on ...Jen Folds, thanks for a highly refreshing take on the whole gender and stifling 'pc' thing. A breath of fresh air in the blogosphere.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9706995.post-1141357392688698912006-03-02T19:43:00.000-08:002006-03-02T19:43:00.000-08:00No stress Bec,sorry if you felt hurt. I did not me...No stress Bec,<BR/><BR/>sorry if you felt hurt. I did not mean to direct my rant at you personally. I just get frustrated by with Western women always telling me how to think ( I am not including you). For me politcal correctness is just the latest fad in a long line of european thought patterns that people who are not white are forced to accept by the west. western people's concept of tolerance is often deeply rooted in intolerance when it comes to other world views. Most of my Muslim friends in Kenya are far more angry at the West's concept of politcal correctness than they are of George Bush's policies who although is hated is also sort of admired as a man of strength. Anways time to go, no offence Bec. You sound nice and sorry if i offended you in my ramblings. ah all's well that ends well. now for a herbal tea...:-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9706995.post-1141252940185300832006-03-01T14:42:00.000-08:002006-03-01T14:42:00.000-08:00I don't think this is the appropriate thread for t...I don't think this is the appropriate thread for that conversation. Feel free to contact me if it's a conversation you'd value, though I'm guessing it's more a conversation your dying to have publicly, for everyone elses benefit rather than for your own.KLJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07518406972256513476noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9706995.post-1141204873158170532006-03-01T01:21:00.000-08:002006-03-01T01:21:00.000-08:00KLJ, do you think there any reasons at all to beli...KLJ, do you think there any reasons at all to believe? Is atheism the better alternative?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9706995.post-1141192637526342582006-02-28T21:57:00.000-08:002006-02-28T21:57:00.000-08:00Long time away, so I'm going back aways. The reaso...Long time away, so I'm going back aways. <BR/>The reason I bitch about Kieren is that he spends a-lot of time starting fights based on assumptions and/or just coming out of left field and it's obnoxious. <BR/>When a discussion actually gets going his contributions can be interesting but he has trouble not making personal attacks which naturally lead one to believe he has personal issues. <BR/>That the attacks are based on his inaccurate assumptions about my brother, who I know as a sincere, passionate and introspective person it's annoying. <BR/>As far as why I labeled myslef or him as an atheist, it was so that he didn't think my disagreement re; his methods was really a desagreement with his supposed message. <BR/><BR/>Great conversation going here though. I like it.KLJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07518406972256513476noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9706995.post-1141177894916931202006-02-28T17:51:00.000-08:002006-02-28T17:51:00.000-08:00KG, guilt is a gift if we heed it as a signal that...KG, guilt is a gift if we heed it as a signal that something's not quite right. To stay in that place is not healthy.Rebeccahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02456121582722875862noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9706995.post-1141176772902076712006-02-28T17:32:00.000-08:002006-02-28T17:32:00.000-08:00Phillip Yancey describes guilt as a gift (in "rumo...Phillip Yancey describes guilt as a gift (in "rumours of another world"). <BR/><BR/>Far from being a waste of time, it is an essential attribute of humans as moral actors.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9706995.post-1141169256134234192006-02-28T15:27:00.000-08:002006-02-28T15:27:00.000-08:00man, i should try and get things right before I po...man, i should try and get things right before I post them...<BR/><BR/>ummm, Jen...<BR/><BR/>I had no idea who you were until you posted your background. I'm really sorry if you felt that I was condescending. From the passion in your post, I obviously unintentionally hit some sore spots. I'm really sorry for any hurt caused, but as I said, it was unintentional.<BR/><BR/>However, there's some pretty full-on accusations directed at me in your post, and they hurt. <BR/><BR/>I am now retreating, licking my wounds, and seeking comfort in the fact that my friends have never accused me of being a condescending white european woman who essentialises people and sprouts abstract notions she's learnt in the academy without thinking critically about how they might work out in reality...Rebeccahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02456121582722875862noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9706995.post-1141168598352200182006-02-28T15:16:00.000-08:002006-02-28T15:16:00.000-08:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Rebeccahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02456121582722875862noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9706995.post-1141167629622587552006-02-28T15:00:00.000-08:002006-02-28T15:00:00.000-08:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Rebeccahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02456121582722875862noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9706995.post-1141166729727144592006-02-28T14:45:00.001-08:002006-02-28T14:45:00.001-08:00btw - Rev, in case I haven't already made it very,...btw - Rev, in case I haven't already made it very, very clear, I think you're a very, very good bloke. :)Rebeccahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02456121582722875862noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9706995.post-1141166707339016032006-02-28T14:45:00.000-08:002006-02-28T14:45:00.000-08:00Rev...1. Cool...I thought you were saying I was mo...Rev...<BR/><BR/>1. Cool...I thought you were saying I was mocking, and I was horrified, because I certainly didn't intend to!<BR/><BR/>2. I wasn't talking about "performed prayers", I thought I made it clear...?? I was merely contrasting private prayer, or prayer with a small group of people, and leading prayer. I do think that they're very different. I think that lead prayer can alienate and stand in the way of people connecting with God, or it can draw them closer to God. I think we need to be aware of how we lead worship, prayer included - it is not just for us, but for others as well. There are songs I would like to sing in church, but don't use, because I know they push people's buttons (and yes, there's a point where people have to get over themselves, but it's also necessary to be considerate of every person's journey). Similarly, I will think about what I'm going to pray for, and the language I will use, for the audience I am with. I don't think that this has to be as artificial, ingenuine and "performed" as you suggest - we all do it to a greater or lesser extent, because we're social beings. <BR/><BR/>I choose the music, visuals, lighting carefully when I think about a service and when I'm leading it - why not consider the words, too?<BR/><BR/>I would suggest that if you started using other words for God, it would seem artificial at first, but over time you might find that they are a really helpful way of breaking down barriers, expanding your understanding of God, and would draw you into a deeper relationship with the Creator. Language is a wonderful thing like that. :)<BR/><BR/>3. There is a place for telling people to get over it...I have told women that before, but sometimes I don't. I wouldn't tell an indigenous Australian to "get over it" if visuals of Jesus used in a service were all white. Similarly, I wouldn't tell a woman who has been terribly hurt by men to "get over it" if she was upset by the imagery that the use of the word "Father" created for her. I really appreciate where you're coming from, there's a place for people to move on (because it damages them if they don't), but I don't think that *generally* (generally!!) it's the place of a bloke to tell a woman to "get over it", just like it's not my place as a white, tertiary educated, middle class kid to tell an indigenous Australian to "get over it". I stress that I say *generally* and that I am just using *examples* here.<BR/><BR/>4. I tend to think of God as masculine, and that's never been particularly unhelpful for me, but I know it has been for a lot of people I know. For that reason alone I have been more careful about how I speak and pray in public spaces, and in doing so, I have personally found that my view of God has expanded enormously. I also find it helpful to use words like "Creator" and "Yahweh" - they are words that, unlike "God", "Lord" and "Father", don't have so many connotations and steretoypes attached, and by using them, we can actually find more of the mystery and wonder of God. <BR/><BR/>The gender specific language in the Bible has a lot to do with the limitations of the ENGLISH language, and limitations of language generally. God cannot be encompassed by mere words, and so we must use many words in order to encompass more of who God is. <BR/><BR/>Finally - guilt is a waste of time. I don't feel guilty for being a white, female, middle-class, tertiary educated person. It's who I am, and there's nothing I can do about it. Guilt is destructive - if I feel guilty, it is a sign to me that I am not doing enough to address inequality. I can't change who I am, but I can change what I do with the advantages that social systems may have conferred upon me because of my personal characteristics.Rebeccahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02456121582722875862noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9706995.post-1141165767352502042006-02-28T14:29:00.000-08:002006-02-28T14:29:00.000-08:00Jen - there isn't really anywhere I can go with th...Jen - there isn't really anywhere I can go with that. You say that institutional racism can really ruin your day, and yet then explain your background...there isn't really anywhere I can go with that. I can't dispute your experience - it's yours. However personally, I have found some of the theories of discursive democracy incredibly insightful when I've then thought about them in relation to how we run church services, and how we make decisions. <BR/><BR/>For example, most churches - whether via committees or the entire membership - would have a vote in order to make a decision, right? This isn't what would occur in many societies, which would instead sit and talk about it for hours and hours and hours.<BR/><BR/>We ran a series of seminars on reconciliaton recently - I was fascinated to find how frustrated I was by how long some of the Aboriginal people took to tell their stories. I saw others struggling with these even more than I. I've also experienced this in the Solomons - I have a very Western, directional way of thinking, and can really struggle to be patient and sit with things, waiting for them to emerge via story telling. <BR/><BR/>I also think that the whole sermon thing is quite culturally biased. This isn't to say that non-western people don't get anything out of it, but it's interesting to think about whether that's because non-western people have adopted western ways of doing church. I don't have any answers to this stuff - it's just some of the stuff I've been thinking about over the years. Of course, the whole idea of a sermon isn't just culturally-biased in the sense of it fitting within what would be traditionally regarded as a Western masculine way of speaking - it doesn't really work for a lot of people in the postmodern context either.<BR/><BR/>For the record, I wouldn't question your experience in liberal and pentecostal churches. It's something my own progressive church can be guilty of...but then p'raps it's just because we're so overly aware of our own biases. :)<BR/><BR/>K, I'll respond to the Rev in another post...Rebeccahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02456121582722875862noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9706995.post-1141124036053349652006-02-28T02:53:00.000-08:002006-02-28T02:53:00.000-08:00I find myself agreeing with you, Rev. Hear, Hear!I find myself agreeing with you, Rev. Hear, Hear!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9706995.post-1141122499935063142006-02-28T02:28:00.000-08:002006-02-28T02:28:00.000-08:00First off Bec, didn't say you were mocking, I just...First off Bec, didn't say you were mocking, I just thought that my story was a great way to look at the situation. Again, you were not mocking, this was a completely different situation. <BR/><BR/>Second, I do not like performed prayers. I pray like I lead worship, I connect with God, and you are included because you are there, but I do nothing with you in mind. I would never talk to you thinking about what Dan or Jen were thinking about my words. I find it pretentious and dishonest to do so.<BR/><BR/>Third, if you prayed to mother God, I wouldn't blink an eye. What others do is not my concern, but if they had a hard time I would tell them to get over it.<BR/><BR/>Fourth, the bible is full of gender specific language, and therefore I have learned to look at God as my Father, not as my mother. Though God is a Spirit, not a body, and therefore has not male genitalia, the one I follow, Jesus (also unfortunatley a man :) ) called God His Father over and over again. Paul did as well. If women find that offensive then I think that is something they have to deal with. I find it offensive when I read about the genocide in the Old Testement, but I have to deal with it.<BR/><BR/>As to the notoriety of the speakers, I agree one hundred percent. But I am over ruled. Apparently the people in charge actually think that getting more people to the open nights will help us to spread the nets wider and bring in income that helps us fund our internship which get to help people actually do ministry.<BR/><BR/>Now the problem I have with most of this stuff is that it never seems to be enough. We have women pastors, leaders, and presenters. We discriminate not at all. And now I am not allowed to call God my Father? I don't care if you call God your mother. The political correctness thing can be taken too far.<BR/><BR/>As a blokey man, I am tired of being made to feel guilty for being myself. I encourage my daughters, I make way for female leaders, and endorse female leadership whenever I can. I also like to wrestle, drink beer, and grunt like an animal. The modern politically correct movement feminizes men, and I don't want to be feminized. If gals want to act more masculine, and men want to act more feminine fine, go for it. But I am tired of feeling guilty for being a man.<BR/><BR/>the revjohn jensenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01152784582419753697noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9706995.post-1141113371352520492006-02-27T23:56:00.000-08:002006-02-27T23:56:00.000-08:00Bec,I almost choked on my dinner when i read this ...Bec,<BR/><BR/>I almost choked on my dinner when i read this <BR/>"the burden of proof basically discriminates against non-Western ways of doing things. I think a lot of what they say applies to the church as well."<BR/><BR/>I am sorry but I am a non-western woman, my father is half- english half Kenyan and my mother is of Indian decent although she was also born in Kenya. Before I came to Australia I spent a year in the UK where i attended a liberal Church of England. We were constantly feed by normally white males and some females the whole inclusive langauge debate and told how non-inclusive pentecostals and evangelicals were of women and people of colour. Despite all this rhetoric our church was all white people with university degrees. White liberals always talk about how they want to accept nonwestern people and women yet their church leadership is always mostly men. When i came to Australia I joined a conservative pentecostal church and found that although the rhetoric was not there they practiced inclusivity and our church is full of women leaders and white people are in the minority, it is time that white european women stopped telling us what they learnt in University courses and left us to run our own lives. I am sorry if i am raving on here but i found your email a bit condscending. You critize male dominated power forms and tell us what you learnt in the academy! Do you not see the irony here. When i did attend a couple of sessions at forge intensive back in 99 i found it far more honest and engaging and accepting than when liberals patronize my and try and include me because they are so excited to have finally met a young black woman leader. Instituional rascism can really ruin your day.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com